Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Dave31 · 12-15-2010, 08:30 AM

I thought this article was a good read:

Were George Washington and Thomas Jefferson Jesus Mythicists?

trendkill · 12-15-2010, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Jefferson occupied his Sundays at Montecello in writing letters to Paine (they are unpublished, I believe, but I have seen them),

Erm, right. I think I'm going to need a better source than that.

From the writings of Jefferson that I (and everybody else) can see, Jefferson believed Jesus existed (and that he taught excellent morals), but that the supernatural parts of his story were made up. The original title of the Jefferson Bible was "The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth". From that alone it appears that he thought Jesus 1. lived and 2. was from Nazareth.

Underseer · 12-15-2010, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trendkill

Quote:

Jefferson occupied his Sundays at Montecello in writing letters to Paine (they are unpublished, I believe, but I have seen them),

Erm, right. I think I'm going to need a better source than that.

From the writings of Jefferson that I (and everybody else) can see, Jefferson believed Jesus existed (and that he taught excellent morals), but that the supernatural parts of his story were made up. The original title of the Jefferson Bible was "The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth". From that alone it appears that he thought Jesus 1. lived and 2. was from Nazareth.

It's entirely possible that Jefferson liked the moral teachings but didn't believe the main character was real.

However, I think if he were a mythicist, we would have heard something about it long, long ago.

trendkill · 12-15-2010, 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underseer

Quote:

Originally Posted by trendkill

Erm, right. I think I'm going to need a better source than that.

From the writings of Jefferson that I (and everybody else) can see, Jefferson believed Jesus existed (and that he taught excellent morals), but that the supernatural parts of his story were made up. The original title of the Jefferson Bible was "The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth". From that alone it appears that he thought Jesus 1. lived and 2. was from Nazareth.

It's entirely possible that Jefferson liked the moral teachings but didn't believe the main character was real.

Just about anything's possible. I suppose the mere title I just gave is a bit thin in terms of positive evidence (although really the burden of proof should be on those who want to claim he was a mythicist, since that is a relatively unusual position even for atheists to take, let alone Christian-influenced Deists). This quote (from a letter to John Adams, 13 Oct. 1813) is clearer:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas Jefferson

Their Platonizing successors, indeed, in after times, in order to legitimate the corruptions which they had incorporated into the doctrines of Jesus, found it necessary to disavow the primitive Christians, who had taken their principles from the mouth of Jesus himself, of his Apostles, and the Fathers contemporary with them.

My bold. It would be a bit tough for anyone to take principles from the mouth of Jesus himself if Jesus never existed, wouldn't it?

Toto · 12-15-2010, 11:51 PM

This is the problem when you try to fit historical characters into our modern categories.

The big issue for most of the history of Christianity was not whether Jesus existed, but whether he was of the same essence as God. If you don't think that Jesus was a divine miracle worker, it doesn't really make a lot of difference whether the gospel picture of Jesus had a historical core, or was based on a real historical person.

Stacey Melissa · 12-16-2010, 01:04 AM

Mod note: Thread moved from PA&SA to BCH.

Stacey Melissa
PA&SA Moderator

avi · 12-16-2010, 06:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

...The big issue for most of the history of Christianity was not whether Jesus existed, but whether he was of the same essence as God. ...

Byzantine Majority John 14:28
oti o pathr mou meizwn mou estin

Hort & Westcott John 14:28
...oti o pathr meizwn mou estin

Vulgate:
....quia Pater maior me est

King James:
....for my Father is greater than I.

So, both Jefferson and Washington could have been aware, upon reading a copy of the Vulgate, that some texts included the additional word "my". If they had recognized the distinction between King James/Byzantine versus Vulgate/Codex Vaticanus, then Toto's point may have been appreciated by them, a couple hundred years ago.

avi

Toto · 12-16-2010, 07:35 AM

This article is interesting, although the title is overstated. Ther founding fathers of the US were Bible critics, and there is evidence that some of them were on friendly terms with prominent early mythicists.

Quote:

Constantin François de Chasseboeuf (1757-1820), also known as "Count Volney," was a professor of history and the author of the classic early mythicist work The Ruins of Empires, originally written in French. Like his fellow French mythographer, college professor and early mythicist writer Charles Dupuis (1742-1809), Volney was also a tutor of French leader Napoleon Bonaparte (1769-1821), who made him a senator and a count.

Unearthing fascinating facts concerning ancient religion and mythology, one of the academician Dupuis's major views in his multivolume work Origine de tous les cultes ou religion universelle (1795) or Origin of All Religious Worship can be summarized as follows:

The existence of Christ, the restorer..., cannot be accepted as a historical fact... With a single blow we shall destroy the follies of the general public and those of the new philosophes, and at the same time we shall strip Christ of his two natures. The public takes him for a god and a man together; the contemporary philosophe takes him for a man only. We shall certainly not take him for a god, and even less for a man. (Bietenholz, 327)

* Bietenholz, Peter G. Historia and Fabula: Myths and Legends in Historical Thought from Antiquity to the Modern Age (or via: amazon.co.uk) can be previewed on google books

aa5874 · 12-16-2010, 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trendkill

Quote:

Jefferson occupied his Sundays at Montecello in writing letters to Paine (they are unpublished, I believe, but I have seen them),

Erm, right. I think I'm going to need a better source than that.

From the writings of Jefferson that I (and everybody else) can see, Jefferson believed Jesus existed (and that he taught excellent morals), but that the supernatural parts of his story were made up. The original title of the Jefferson Bible was "The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth". From that alone it appears that he thought Jesus 1. lived and 2. was from Nazareth.

It matters NOT what people believe. It is the EVIDENCE that MATTERS.

Even in court trials with DIRECT evidence, with audio and video recordings, and EYEWITNESSES, some people BELIEVE quite the opposite and will argue AGAINST the EVIDENCE.

There is just NO credible evidence, No credible historical source, in ALL EXTANT Antiquity that Jesus was KNOWN to be a MERE MAN and did actually have a KNOWN human father.

Dave31 · 12-16-2010, 09:10 AM

Well, I didn't realize this would get moved over here so I posted it in the thread on the mythicist position.

Anyway, there's just no reason to believe that Thomas Jefferson believed in a historical Jesus:

Quote:

"I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, & I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth."
- Thomas Jefferson

Quote:

"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb in a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."
- Thomas Jefferson, in a letter to John Adams

Quote:

"Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man"
- Thomas Jefferson

Other prominent early Americans made these comments:

Quote:

"Lighthouses are more useful than churches"
- Benjamin Franklin

Quote:

"The United States is in no sense founded upon the Christian doctrine."
- George Washington

Quote:

"This would be the best of all possible worlds if there were no religion in it!"
- John Adams

Quote:

"The Bible is not my book, and Christianity is not my religion. I could never give assent to the long, complicated statements of Christian dogma"
- Abraham Lincoln

Quote:

"I care not for a man's religion whose dog and cat are not the better for it"
- Abraham Lincoln

Quote:

"The Christian religion and Masonry have one and the same common origin: Both are derived from the worship of the Sun. The difference between their origin is, that the Christian religion is a parody on the worship of the Sun, in which they put a man whom they call Christ, in the place of the Sun, and pay him the same adoration which was originally paid to the Sun."
- Thomas Paine

12-15-2010, 08:30 AM	#1
Dave31 Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: USA Posts: 425	Were George Washington and Thomas Jefferson Jesus Mythicists? I thought this article was a good read: Were George Washington and Thomas Jefferson Jesus Mythicists?

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12-15-2010, 11:51 PM	#5
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	This is the problem when you try to fit historical characters into our modern categories. The big issue for most of the history of Christianity was not whether Jesus existed, but whether he was of the same essence as God. If you don't think that Jesus was a divine miracle worker, it doesn't really make a lot of difference whether the gospel picture of Jesus had a historical core, or was based on a real historical person.

12-16-2010, 01:04 AM	#6
Stacey Melissa Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Wichita, Kansas, USA Posts: 8,650	Mod note: Thread moved from PA&SA to BCH. Stacey Melissa PA&SA Moderator

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