Freethought & Rationalism Archive

mountainman · 04-29-2011, 05:19 AM

The Last Pagans of Rome (or via: amazon.co.uk) by Alan Cameron, with a significant review by Philip Matyszak at UNRV.

Quote:

Paganism came to an end in Rome during the early fifth century AD. The question is whether Rome's last pagans went out with a bang or a whimper. This book, by one of the foremost scholars of late antiquity, is a closely argued thesis in favour of the 'out with a whimper' school of thought

not to be confused with ...

The Last Pagan: Julian the Apostate and the Death of the Ancient World (or via: amazon.co.uk) by Adrian Murdoch. Here is a review:

Quote:

Tragically, he was on the losing side of history in more ways than one. His prohibition of Christians teaching the classics would have eventually consigned the Gallilean cult to oblivion. But what would have filled the void? Julian’s recast paganism was to have a central theology heavily influenced by Hellenic philosophy, a strict and hierarchical clergy, and a new emphasis on almsgiving and social activism. In other words, Julian answer to competition with Christianity was to have paganism closely mirror Christianity. Even if this new version of paganism were to endure after his death, what would have been the point in berating Christianity only to mimic it? It is nonetheless interesting to ponder what would have happened if the crossroads of history has experienced a different turn.

Potoooooooo · 04-29-2011, 06:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

The Last Pagans of Rome (or via: amazon.co.uk) by Alan Cameron, with a significant review by Philip Matyszak at UNRV.

Quote:

Paganism came to an end in Rome during the early fifth century AD. The question is whether Rome's last pagans went out with a bang or a whimper. This book, by one of the foremost scholars of late antiquity, is a closely argued thesis in favour of the 'out with a whimper' school of thought

not to be confused with ...

The Last Pagan: Julian the Apostate and the Death of the Ancient World (or via: amazon.co.uk) by Adrian Murdoch. Here is a review:

Quote:

Tragically, he was on the losing side of history in more ways than one. His prohibition of Christians teaching the classics would have eventually consigned the Gallilean cult to oblivion. But what would have filled the void? Julian’s recast paganism was to have a central theology heavily influenced by Hellenic philosophy, a strict and hierarchical clergy, and a new emphasis on almsgiving and social activism. In other words, Julian answer to competition with Christianity was to have paganism closely mirror Christianity. Even if this new version of paganism were to endure after his death, what would have been the point in berating Christianity only to mimic it? It is nonetheless interesting to ponder what would have happened if the crossroads of history has experienced a different turn.

Looks very good! I will check them out

mountainman · 04-30-2011, 12:19 AM

The author of "The Last Pagan" - Adrian Murdoch - has a very interesting and informative website with resource links and classical blogs.

mountainman · 04-30-2011, 02:38 AM

Roman Statues Trace Back to Troubled Dynasty

Quote:

A rich cache of ancient Roman statues representing a troubled imperial dynasty has been unearthed on the outskirts of Rome, according to Italy’s Ministry of Cultural Heritage.

Most likely depicting members of the Severan dynasty, the statues were found by a team of archaeologists excavating a Roman villa along the Via Anagnina.

Of interest in the general thread of paganism here is the following:

Quote:

The archaeologists believe that the last owner of the villa was a high ranking officer closely related to the Severan imperial family.

“Near the villa we found a mausoleum which probably belongs to the last owner. In the Severan time, it was a well known practice to bury the owner near its house,” Roberto Egidi, the director of the excavation, told La Repubblica.

Experts are now wondering why the Severan statues were buried all together in a basin. The statues appear to have been carefully buried, with a piece of tufa placed between each marble fragment as to create a protective padding.

“I still have goosebumps. It appears that those who buried these statues really wanted to preserve them up to our days,” said Daniela Spadoni, technical assistant at Rome's superintendence.

The last comment suggests that those who buried the statues
may have been burying them as a direct result of the "Christian
Revolution of the 4th Century". They would not be alone in
the category of pagan archaeological finds that demonstrate
a desire by the preservers to really get their material out of sight.

andrewcriddle · 04-30-2011, 04:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Roman Statues Trace Back to Troubled Dynasty

Quote:

A rich cache of ancient Roman statues representing a troubled imperial dynasty has been unearthed on the outskirts of Rome, according to Italy’s Ministry of Cultural Heritage.

Most likely depicting members of the Severan dynasty, the statues were found by a team of archaeologists excavating a Roman villa along the Via Anagnina.

Of interest in the general thread of paganism here is the following:

Quote:

The archaeologists believe that the last owner of the villa was a high ranking officer closely related to the Severan imperial family.

“Near the villa we found a mausoleum which probably belongs to the last owner. In the Severan time, it was a well known practice to bury the owner near its house,” Roberto Egidi, the director of the excavation, told La Repubblica.

Experts are now wondering why the Severan statues were buried all together in a basin. The statues appear to have been carefully buried, with a piece of tufa placed between each marble fragment as to create a protective padding.

“I still have goosebumps. It appears that those who buried these statues really wanted to preserve them up to our days,” said Daniela Spadoni, technical assistant at Rome's superintendence.

The last comment suggests that those who buried the statues
may have been burying them as a direct result of the "Christian
Revolution of the 4th Century". They would not be alone in
the category of pagan archaeological finds that demonstrate
a desire by the preservers to really get their material out of sight.

The statues were presumably buried in the mid 3rd century CE.
See the interesting discussion in the comments below the main article.

Andrew Criddle

Toto · 04-30-2011, 09:33 AM

I don't see a comment that resembles Pete's idea.

The comment of Stephen Eddleman notes that it was common to behead statutes of officials when they were overthrown, and save the heads in case the dynasty returned. This would place this in the 3rd century, with no relation to the ascension of Christians.

Christians were noted for destroying idols in pagan temples, not for destroying statutes of emperors.

lpetrich · 04-30-2011, 08:42 PM

Seems like those statues were buried during the

Crisis of the Third Century, a period of civil war, economic slumping, and other such calamities.

As to Julian the Apostate, he wanted to create competition for the Xian Church that would imitate its organization; most pagan priesthoods were not nearly as well-organized. That reminds me of Auguste Comte, who created a Religion of Humanity that ripped off Catholic practice so much that one critic called it Catholicism minus Xianity.

mountainman · 04-30-2011, 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

The statues were presumably buried in the mid 3rd century CE.
See the interesting discussion in the comments below the main article.

No date was mentioned in the article for their burial.
But I think your right about the likelihood it was 3rd century.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

I don't see a comment that resembles Pete's idea.

The comment of Stephen Eddleman notes that it was common to behead statutes of officials when they were overthrown, and save the heads in case the dynasty returned. This would place this in the 3rd century, with no relation to the ascension of Christians.

I have to agree this would probably be more likely in this instance. It will be interesting to hear what further research is reported.

Quote:

Christians were noted for destroying idols in pagan temples, not for destroying statutes of emperors.

There was a discussion a while back about the find of hidden pagan idols that were suspected of being buried in the 4th century. You are correct in pointing out that in general the Panhellenic sculpture of "deity" was trashed by the christians as "idols".

Constantine was not unique in recycling statues. But I had read, and never really confirmed the source for it, that the statue of the emperor Marcus Aurelius (the one on the horse) was only preserved because the christians thought it was a statue of Constantine.

From here:

Quote:

The famous equestrian statue of Marcus Aurelius, which survived the centuries near San Giovanni in Laterano because the rider was identified as Constantine, no longer greets the visitor to the Capitoline, where Michelangelo had placed it in the sixteenth century. It was removed in the 1980s because pollution was destroying it. After careful treatment and restoration, it is now displayed within the museum, with a replica placed in the center of the piazza.

Here's a question. How many (complete not fragmentary busts) statues of Roman Emperors survive
apart from this one of Marcus Aurelius? Does anyone know?

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04-30-2011, 12:19 AM	#3
mountainman Contributor Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Falls Creek, Oz. Posts: 11,192	The author of "The Last Pagan" - Adrian Murdoch - has a very interesting and informative website with resource links and classical blogs.

04-30-2011, 09:33 AM	#6
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	I don't see a comment that resembles Pete's idea. The comment of Stephen Eddleman notes that it was common to behead statutes of officials when they were overthrown, and save the heads in case the dynasty returned. This would place this in the 3rd century, with no relation to the ascension of Christians. Christians were noted for destroying idols in pagan temples, not for destroying statutes of emperors.

04-30-2011, 08:42 PM	#7
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	Seems like those statues were buried during the Crisis of the Third Century, a period of civil war, economic slumping, and other such calamities. As to Julian the Apostate, he wanted to create competition for the Xian Church that would imitate its organization; most pagan priesthoods were not nearly as well-organized. That reminds me of Auguste Comte, who created a Religion of Humanity that ripped off Catholic practice so much that one critic called it Catholicism minus Xianity.

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