countjulian

Christian activity across the USA and in my local seems to be growing out of hand, so I have decided to do something about it. I have put together a flyer that focuses on all of the pagan parralles between Jesus and the gods of antiquity, using only primary texts for support. I have done quite well so far, but I am looking for the last peice of the puzzle. I have found everything I was looking for, except for the orphic myth of the death and ressurection of Dionysus. The version I am look for is the one in which Dionysus is torn to shreds by the Titans and eaten, leaving only his heart, which is buried and ressurected by Zeus. nemerous other versions of the myth seem to relate other ways in which Dionysus was brought back to life, all involving his heart. I cannot find the primary text, though. Any help would be appreciated.

BTW, here's what I have so far. What do you think?


Jesus, the Copycat Saviour(in wordart)


The Greek god Perseus, born of the virgin Danae and Zeus in a shower of gold:

Perseus, the son of Jove [Zeus] and her whom, in her prison, Juppiter’s [Zeus’] golden shower made fertile. — Metamorphoses 4.697

The Greek god Heracles (known to you under his Roman name, Hercules), who died in agony, was resurrected, and ascended to heaven:

Heracles, whom she had by Zeus…the poison of the hydra began to corrode his skin…and [he] tore off the tunic, which clung to his body, so that his flesh was torn away with it. In such a sad plight he was carried on shipboard to Trachis… [Heracles] proceeded to Mount Oeta, in the Trachinian territory, and there constructed a pyre, mounted it, and gave orders to kindle it. When no one would do so, Poeas, passing by to look for his flocks, set a light to it. On him Hercules bestowed his bow. While the pyre was burning, it is said that a cloud passed under Hercules and with a peal of thunder wafted him up to heaven. Thereafter he obtained immortality-- Apollodorus, 'The Library,' 11; IV, 8-VII, 7

The Greek god Asclepius, who made the blind see, raised men from the dead, died, and was resurrected:

"Asclepius was the son of Apollo [a god] and Coronis [a mortal woman]...he healed many sick whose lives had been despaired of, and... he brought back to life many who had died."—Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History, 4.7.1.1- 2

When Hippolytus was killed,...Asclepius raised him from the dead."—Pausanias, Corinth, Description of Greece, 1.27.5

Hermon of Thasus. His blindness was cured by Asclepius.— Inscriptiones Graecae, 4.1.121 - 122, Stele 2.22

"The youth [Asklepios] blasted by ancestral bolts [of Zeus] soars from earth…Phoebus [Apollon], you whined. He is a god; smile at your father, who, for your sake, undoes his prohibitions [and grants Asklepios life]

…Hercules [Herakles], of Castor and Pollux [the Dioskouroi], of Aesculapius [Asklepios] ... And these benefactors were duly deemed divine, as being both supremely good and immortal, because their souls survived and enjoyed eternal life.—Cicero, Cicero, De Natura Deorum 2.24


The salvation god Mithra, who spilled eternal blood to save humanity, and left his followers with a sacred Eucharist:

You [Mithra] have saved us by the shedding of eternal blood.—Inscription, Mithraum in Rome

This rite [communion] the wicked devils have imitated in the mysteries of Mithras, commanding the same thing to be done. For they set forth bread and a cup of water with certain incantations in their ceremonies of initiation—Justin Martyr, First Apology 68

The Egyptian god Osiris, who died, was resurrected, and ascended to heaven, where he will judge the living and the dead, forever and ever:

[the first examination]
They [the Gods of the Underworld] say, "Come forward.
They say, "Who are you,"
They say, "What is your name?"
"I am the he who is equipped under the flowers, the-dweller-in-the-moringa Osiris is my name."—Egyptian book of the Dead

the rites celebrated by night agree with the accounts of the dismemberment of Osiris and his resurrection and regenesis—Plutarch, Isis and Osiris 364

Isis, who resurrected Osiris and with him guarantees salvation to all who except Osiris as savior:

The keys of hell and the guarantee of salvation were in the hands of the goddess, and the initiation ceremony itself a kind of voluntary death and salvation through divine grace.—
Apuleius, Metamorphosis, Book 11, 21

And [the followers of Isis & Osiris said], "Be of good cheer, O initiates, for the god is saved, and we shall have salvation— Firmicus Maternus, The Error of Pagan Religions, 22.1

The Greek god Dionysus, who turned water to wine, did miracles, died, and was resurrected:

One woman [bacchant]
struck her thyrsus against a rock and a fountain
of cool water came bubbling up. Another drove
her fennel in the ground, and where it struck the earth,
at the touch of god [Dionysus], a spring of wine poured out….— Euripides, The Bacchae, 707- 712

The devils, accordingly, when they heard these prophetic words, said that Bacchus was the son of Jupiter, and ...having been torn in pieces, he ascended into heaven--Justin Martyr, First Apology, 54

Rick Sumner

The blood shed isn't Mithras', and it isn't spilled to "save" humanity. It's the slain bull, from which the world was created. We are loathe to read Christian concepts of "salvation" into this.

Regards,
Rick Sumner

countjulian

Well, jeese, thanks for the help. I never said Mithra shed his own blood, but it was a salvic act. it is the main point of all Mithraums, and Mithra's devotees are shown celebrating it. Mitra, in Iranian myth, was an intercessor, and as Roman Mithra he seems to have fulfilled the same role. We know for a fact that the Mithraists celebrated a Eucharistic meal that bore great similiarity to the Eucharistic meal of Christianity. In many of the Eucharististic representations of this Eucharist, Mithra is shown with his devotees and the Sun god, indicating that this is taking place somewhere else than earth. Tertulian seems to connect this with the afterlife, and Justinus stresses the simialarity of the Mithra Eucharist to the Christian one, including its connection with the salvation of the god's followers. Plus, I never directly compared it to the christian doctrine, I just printed the primary text and left it up to the believer's imagination.

Biff the unclean

If you are ever in Rome make a point of visiting the church of San Clemente. It’s one of the oldest churches there is and in its basement is an intact temple of Mithra.
And be sure to take a tour of the catacombs. The guides will assure you that they were constructed by Christians who were hiding from the nasty Pagans. They are filled with paintings of Jesus all of which date after 325 CE. Prior to 325 the Christians only painted Hercules, Serapis, Apollonius of Tyana, Mithra and painting after painting of Dionysus. Not a single painting of Jesus. I asked three people why this was and got three different answers.

You should note that the Mithric Eucharist is not bread and wine like the Christian. It was loaves and fishes…which rings a bell of sorts.

countjulian

No. Justin Martyr and Justinos both agree that the mithraists gave thier Eucharists it was composed of bread and water (maby wine if you minded your Mithraic mysteries). Care to enlighten me where you got this?

Rick Sumner

That it was the "main point" has nothing to do with what I said, which is that your implied analoging of "saved by the shed blood" to Christian soteriology, is at best specious, and more realistically simply wrong. We simply have no idea what was meant by "saved," and the notion that the tauroctony celebrates a salvation is disingenuous--the tauroctony celebrates the origin of the world from the slain bull. A more realistic interpretation of "saved" is the revelation of the mysteries.

This is irrelevant to the point I addressed. I singled but one out specifically to avoid such confusion. My post addressed the implied analogue of the Mithraic inscription to Christianity. The analogue is at best specious.

And you don't see that as disingenuous, given the context of your post? You're kidding, right? This is but an easy out for a point you can't defend.

Regards,
Rick Sumner

countjulian

Yes, we do have an idea of what it meant. The church fathers were quite emphatic in claiming that the rites of the wicked devil Mithra were believed to bring immortality of some kind, and the iconography we have indicates that Mithra's followers got some type of afterlife, particularly that it involved the slain bull, eating his flesh and drinking his blood. We see the same type of connection made in Christianity between the Eucharist and salvation. Mithraism continued to be a major competitor to Christianity right through the 5th and 6th centuries, it was one of last pagan religions to die out, and it could not have survived in that environment without some type of an afterlife promise. We know that the mysteries of Isis and Osiris, Bacchus, and Kore all featured after life promises, and there is no way that Mithraism could compete with them unless it had some kind of an afterlife promise. Also, your description of what "salvation" is tendentious at best and silly at worst. Mithra "saved" people by creating the world? What do you think they needed saving from, gonorrhea? They wanted salvation from death! As Plato clearly pointed out, people who joined the mystery religions joined to escape the prospect of an eternity in Hades, or worse yet, Tartarus. Would you care to enlighten us on were you got your interpretation from?

Oh, and by the way, I could still use some help on finding the Dionyssu-Zagreus quote.

Roger Pearse

From which ancient text does this derive?

Or this? Mithras was celebrated in various ritual meals, but none called a 'eucharist'.

Need the Latin, and the context, and which Mithraeum.

Interesting if Mithras cultists were adopting Christian elements in their rituals at this date; but actually I think the parallel is too vague and general to show such. Eating together is a common human activity, doing so at the god's table a natural thing to suppose, and no connection to Christian practise is necessary for so simple a thing to arise.

Do stick purely to items that can be documented from primary source material. There seems to be a little man out there inventing material about Mithras, and his productions do not increase human understanding.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Johnny Skeptic

Primary source material is completely useless where it matters most, namely it cannot reliably tell us whether or not Jesus was actually conceived by the Holy Spirit, died for the sins of mankind, was born of a vrigin, never sinnned, healed people, and fed 5,000 people with a few loaves of bread and a few fish. Your scholarship is impressive, but neither you nor William Lane Craig, Gary Habermas, J.P. Moreland, N.T. Wright or any other Christian can adequately deal with these issues. What are you trying to accomplish with your scholarship. Are you trying to convince non-Christians to become Christians, or do you make posts at this forum soley for academic reasons? I need to know this so I will be better able to reply to your posts.

andrewcriddle

Et nos servasti eternali (sic) sanguine fuso

deciphered from a wall of the Mithraeum of Santa Prisca.

IIUC there is controversy about the reading eternali possibly it should be aeternali

(Source Robert Turcan 'Cults of the Roman Empire' p 226) [*]


Andrew Criddle


[*] mod note - searchable on Amazon