Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Clivedurdle · 01-23-2008, 08:41 AM

A fundamentalist friend has a catch phrase used at various times about the laws of the Medes and the Persians.

In history there were terms like the "allied view of history".

I wonder if something similar has occurred in Biblical Studies - is there an underlying assumption that the Jewish version of history is somehow correct?

The term Abrahamic is a clue. If Abraham is an invention - Bible Unearthed - how can these religions be traced back to him?

There was a comment in another thread - follow the money!

If we do that with Judaism - we do not go back to Solomon, who if he existed at all was only a minor war lord, not the person described in the Bible, but to someone actually called Messiah - Cyrus!

And all sorts of repercussions occur - like Cyrus worshipping the Most High! And Judaism making major advances in and after the exile.

Might Judaism, Christianity and Islam not be "Abrahamic" religions at all, but Zarathustran off shoots?

Where did the idea of One God really come from?

Armstrong History of God for example accepts the traditional view, but does it hold water?

premjan · 01-23-2008, 08:48 AM

There were probably multiple influences on Judaism and the Zoroastrians were certainly one of them.

Clivedurdle · 01-23-2008, 08:49 AM

I am arguing they are the critical ones!

premjan · 01-23-2008, 08:53 AM

OK, so the final battle between good and evil is present in Zoroastrianism (also Asatru - Ragnarok). Cyrus is a little too late chronologically to be the instigator in toto of Judaism perhaps? I agree that the Zoroastrians believed in the one God, but it wasn't a tribal God like that of the Jews. Maybe there is some relation of the Jewish messiah (who is a warrior) to Cyrus.

Clivedurdle · 01-23-2008, 08:53 AM

Quote:

By the rivers of Babylon we sat and wept
when we remembered Zion.

2 There on the poplars
we hung our harps,

3 for there our captors asked us for songs,
our tormentors demanded songs of joy;
they said, "Sing us one of the songs of Zion!"

4 How can we sing the songs of the LORD
while in a foreign land?

5 If I forget you, O Jerusalem,
may my right hand forget its skill .

6 May my tongue cling to the roof of my mouth
if I do not remember you,
if I do not consider Jerusalem
my highest joy.

7 Remember, O LORD, what the Edomites did
on the day Jerusalem fell.
"Tear it down," they cried,
"tear it down to its foundations!"

8 O Daughter of Babylon, doomed to destruction,
happy is he who repays you
for what you have done to us-

9 he who seizes your infants
and dashes them against the rocks.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=PS%20137

This is obviously a propaganda hymn against the Persians - who did release the Jews and rebuild the Temple.
I get the impression there is a habit of admitting they were an influence but a resistance to biting the bullet and seriously asking how important was the Persian Empire?

mg01 · 01-23-2008, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

This is obviously a propaganda hymn against the Persians - who did release the Jews and rebuild the Temple.
I get the impression there is a habit of admitting they were an influence but a resistance to biting the bullet and seriously asking how important was the Persian Empire?

Why do you attribute this as against the Persians? It appears it would make more sense against the neo-Babylonians under Nebuchadrezzar II who were responsible for the exile of the inhabitants of Judah, rather than the Persians who released them.

01-23-2008, 08:41 AM	#1
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	The Medes and the Persians A fundamentalist friend has a catch phrase used at various times about the laws of the Medes and the Persians. In history there were terms like the "allied view of history". I wonder if something similar has occurred in Biblical Studies - is there an underlying assumption that the Jewish version of history is somehow correct? The term Abrahamic is a clue. If Abraham is an invention - Bible Unearthed - how can these religions be traced back to him? There was a comment in another thread - follow the money! If we do that with Judaism - we do not go back to Solomon, who if he existed at all was only a minor war lord, not the person described in the Bible, but to someone actually called Messiah - Cyrus! And all sorts of repercussions occur - like Cyrus worshipping the Most High! And Judaism making major advances in and after the exile. Might Judaism, Christianity and Islam not be "Abrahamic" religions at all, but Zarathustran off shoots? Where did the idea of One God really come from? Armstrong History of God for example accepts the traditional view, but does it hold water?

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01-23-2008, 08:48 AM	#2
premjan Obsessed Contributor Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: NJ Posts: 61,538	There were probably multiple influences on Judaism and the Zoroastrians were certainly one of them.

01-23-2008, 08:49 AM	#3
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	I am arguing they are the critical ones!

01-23-2008, 08:53 AM	#4
premjan Obsessed Contributor Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: NJ Posts: 61,538	OK, so the final battle between good and evil is present in Zoroastrianism (also Asatru - Ragnarok). Cyrus is a little too late chronologically to be the instigator in toto of Judaism perhaps? I agree that the Zoroastrians believed in the one God, but it wasn't a tribal God like that of the Jews. Maybe there is some relation of the Jewish messiah (who is a warrior) to Cyrus.

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