Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Steven Carr · 04-05-2006, 11:59 AM

Is this a Gnostic talking?

No, it is a quote from Paul from Romans 7:24.

Can Paul really have been convinced that our bodies will rise from the grave, when he writes that he wants to be rescued from his body of death? Why would he want to be saved from something that is itself going to be saved?

Surely Paul had seen that Jesus body had died , looked at his own body, heading for the same fate, and thought 'I want out of here.'

Chili · 04-05-2006, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Carr

Is this a Gnostic talking?

No, it is a quote from Paul from Romans 7:24.

Can Paul really have been convinced that our bodies will rise from the grave, when he writes that he wants to be rescued from his body of death? Why would he want to be saved from something that is itself going to be saved?

Surely Paul had seen that Jesus body had died , looked at his own body, heading for the same fate, and thought 'I want out of here.'

"Who can free me from this body under the power of death" [NAB] refers to an authority over this body and that authority is in the wrong mind if it is doomed to die with the body.

No, Paul knew how Jesus died and was a survivor himself.

Toto · 04-05-2006, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Carr

Is this a Gnostic talking?

Maybe

Quote:

No, it is a quote from Paul from Romans 7:24.

. . . .

In context:

Quote:

21 So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23 but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

"Sinful nature" is the NIV translators version of "sarx" or flesh - Young's Literal Translation has only "flesh." The NIV evidently felt the need to spice things up a bit.

Paul has just explained how inadequate the Jewish law is. By pointing sin out and forbidding it, the law produces sin (as in, "Don't think about an elephant".)

Quote:

7 What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet."[b] 8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead. 9 Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10 I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death.

Previously, Paul has said:

Quote:

4 So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. . . But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

I don't know why one would not label this passage Gnostic. It is opposed to the Jewish law, it elevates Spirit over body, it invests the body of Christ with heavy mystic symbolism.

jakejonesiv · 04-05-2006, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Carr

Is this a Gnostic talking?

No, it is a quote from Paul from Romans 7:24.

Can Paul really have been convinced that our bodies will rise from the grave, when he writes that he wants to be rescued from his body of death? Why would he want to be saved from something that is itself going to be saved?

Surely Paul had seen that Jesus body had died , looked at his own body, heading for the same fate, and thought 'I want out of here.'

Stephen,

It sure sounds like it, as does Romans 13:11-12.

The common gnostic thought was that the divine sparks were imprisioned in the material world by illusion. The world, including the physical body, was created in a flawed manner by the creator.

In the gnostic myths, the Redeemer often came not to pacify his angry Father by dying for the sins, but to liberate the forlorn from the haec cellula creatoris, prison cell of the creator, in which they were found.

This redeemer was Christos, a mysterious aeonial being that descended in the form of a messenger. Christos was the mediator and guide between the highest God, and everything spiritual in man.

Jesus does not resurrect as a physical body, indeed there is doubt Jesus ever had a physical body. The resurrection was first spiritual awakening; the indwelling divine
spark is released of illusion and rises up from the "graves" of body and mind. The resurrection was gnosis, true spiritual awakening, not the reanimating of corpses. "Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light." Ephesians 5:14.

Jake Jones

gstafleu · 04-05-2006, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Scripsit Paulus:
For apart from law, sin is dead.

Gee, this guy should have been a modern day sociologist/criminologist

!

04-05-2006, 11:59 AM	#1
Steven Carr Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: England Posts: 5,629	Who will rescue me from this body of death? Is this a Gnostic talking? No, it is a quote from Paul from Romans 7:24. Can Paul really have been convinced that our bodies will rise from the grave, when he writes that he wants to be rescued from his body of death? Why would he want to be saved from something that is itself going to be saved? Surely Paul had seen that Jesus body had died , looked at his own body, heading for the same fate, and thought 'I want out of here.'

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.