Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Adonael · 05-19-2008, 10:46 AM

Hello,

A while ago, I bumped into this link:
http://www.rationalresponders.com/

I scrolled down and found a video. In this video, there was a gentleman named Rook Hawkins giving a speech on jesus mythicism. Hawkins was introduced as a "historian" and that his work is undergoing peer review. He also speaks as if he is part of "scholarship". Yet, I searched and found no information on him as a historian or even as an author with any academic credentials. Who's Hawkins?

Toto · 05-19-2008, 01:44 PM

Rook Hawkins is an atheist activist. He has not yet established his credentials as a professional historian qualified to teach in a university AFAIK.

I don't keep up the the RRS but there is an entry here which might explain more:

Jesus Mythicism Revised

Quote:

About a year and a half ago, I started a campaign to educate people about Jesus mythicism. When I had first started working on the campaign I was not as well prepared as I am now. I have to chalk that up to inexperience. When somebody says “a lot can happen in a year”, I will consider what they have to say, because they aren’t kidding. A lot has happened in a year and a half that I felt a revision of this article was a necessity.

Among the new avenues I have taken is a complete refocusing of my book, a project that has been a very huge learning experience, and I owe a large debt of gratitude to my mentor, colleague and friend, Thomas L. Thompson, who has been in no small way an influence on me personally and my research. Richard Carrier and Robert M. Price have also stepped in to give me some really important advice and critiques that have also shaped how I see the past. My debts also include Joseph B. Tyson, who has offered some criticisms as well as kindness and friendship, and to minimalists everywhere who have said in a loud voice, “We will not submit to assumption and speculation.” It is their mighty tombs and impressively large shadows that I walk behind. Without their unending sacrifice to keep scholarship in check, the world would still be shrouded in an age of darkness and death that ended with the success of the redaction schools of Germany and the glorious Enlightenment that help shaped western culture....

There is a long thread on the Richard Dawkins forum on Rook's credentials, in which he participates. No need to replicate that here, thank you.

Do you want to discuss Rook Hawkins or his particular theories of Jesus Mythicism? If the former, this is the wrong forum. If you just want to discuss Jesus Mythicism, we already have many threads on that.

Adonael · 05-19-2008, 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Rook Hawkins is an atheist activist. He has not yet established his credentials as a professional historian qualified to teach in a university AFAIK.

I don't keep up the the RRS but there is an entry here which might explain more:

Jesus Mythicism Revised

Quote:

About a year and a half ago, I started a campaign to educate people about Jesus mythicism. When I had first started working on the campaign I was not as well prepared as I am now. I have to chalk that up to inexperience. When somebody says “a lot can happen in a year”, I will consider what they have to say, because they aren’t kidding. A lot has happened in a year and a half that I felt a revision of this article was a necessity.

Among the new avenues I have taken is a complete refocusing of my book, a project that has been a very huge learning experience, and I owe a large debt of gratitude to my mentor, colleague and friend, Thomas L. Thompson, who has been in no small way an influence on me personally and my research. Richard Carrier and Robert M. Price have also stepped in to give me some really important advice and critiques that have also shaped how I see the past. My debts also include Joseph B. Tyson, who has offered some criticisms as well as kindness and friendship, and to minimalists everywhere who have said in a loud voice, “We will not submit to assumption and speculation.” It is their mighty tombs and impressively large shadows that I walk behind. Without their unending sacrifice to keep scholarship in check, the world would still be shrouded in an age of darkness and death that ended with the success of the redaction schools of Germany and the glorious Enlightenment that help shaped western culture....

There is a long thread on the Richard Dawkins forum on Rook's credentials, in which he participates. No need to replicate that here, thank you.

Do you want to discuss Rook Hawkins or his particular theories of Jesus Mythicism? If the former, this is the wrong forum. If you just want to discuss Jesus Mythicism, we already have many threads on that.

Can I discuss rook's credentials or arguments as they relate to jesus mythicism?

Diogenes the Cynic · 05-19-2008, 10:09 PM

You can discuss any arguments which are unique to Rook or especially well made by him (credentials aren't so important. An argument either holds up or it doesn't).

Solitary Man · 05-19-2008, 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rook Hawkins

Under his “Research” category, he lists the need to be proficient at “several semitic languages, Koine Greek, and Latin. (sic!)” I don’t know many scholars who hold so many proficiency certificates in all of those languages. With the exception of Bart Ehrman, who is a textual critic (so his job is to specifically deal with all these languages), I can not think of many scholars who would fit this criteria.

Wow. Just wow. I can name a dozen without blinking. And how many Semitic languages does Bart Ehrman know? While I think the qualification is a bit skewed, if this "Rook Hawkins" fellow doesn't know anyone but Bart Ehrman who has those qualifications, then he doesn't know any scholars at all! More importantly, what scholars don't know the original languages of the culture they're dealing with?

I wander what degree he holds in what fields? I don't know much about him, and frankly, that he already professes so much ignorance and associates himself with the laughable "Rational Response Squad" (the most irrational of any atheist group I've seen thus far), then I seriously doubt his competence in any sort of field.

Solitary Man · 05-19-2008, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

You can discuss any arguments which are unique to Rook or especially well made by him (credentials aren't so important. An argument either holds up or it doesn't).

I disagree. If you are incompetent in understanding the argument, who would you rather believe, the person with the most credentials or the person with no credentials?

Manwe · 05-19-2008, 11:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solitary Man

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

You can discuss any arguments which are unique to Rook or especially well made by him (credentials aren't so important. An argument either holds up or it doesn't).

I disagree. If you are incompetent in understanding the argument, who would you rather believe, the person with the most credentials or the person with no credentials?

If you do not understand the argument maybe you should not take sides in it.

Toto · 05-19-2008, 11:18 PM

The Jesus Myth Theory does not depend on Rook Hawkins' credentials, so his credentials are not especially relevant here.

Antipope Innocent II · 05-20-2008, 12:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

The Jesus Myth Theory does not depend on Rook Hawkins' credentials, so his credentials are not especially relevant here.

The topic was who Hawkins was, considering he's presenting himself on the net, his radio show and anywhere else he can get an audience as an "Ancient Texts Expert" who has things to say about how Jesus never existed. His qualifications are pretty relevant to that issue.

And to answer the question - he has none. He's an amateur hobbyist with a High School diploma. He'd do himself and his fervent cause a great deal of good if he stopped pretending to be something he isn't and simply admitted that he's a keen amateur when it comes to history and a committed polemicist when it comes to atheism, rationalism and the JM hypothesis.

GakuseiDon · 05-20-2008, 12:47 AM

There is a good thread on the RRS board where Rook discusses his credentials. It's 3 pages long, and raises questions on what the term "historian" means, and when does it apply? Rook argues that he qualifies as a "historian":
http://www.rationalresponders.com/reply_troll

05-19-2008, 10:46 AM	#1
Adonael Banned Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: S. Canada Posts: 1,252	Who's Rook Hawkins? Hello, A while ago, I bumped into this link: http://www.rationalresponders.com/ I scrolled down and found a video. In this video, there was a gentleman named Rook Hawkins giving a speech on jesus mythicism. Hawkins was introduced as a "historian" and that his work is undergoing peer review. He also speaks as if he is part of "scholarship". Yet, I searched and found no information on him as a historian or even as an author with any academic credentials. Who's Hawkins?

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05-19-2008, 10:09 PM	#4
Diogenes the Cynic Moderator - Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota Posts: 4,639	You can discuss any arguments which are unique to Rook or especially well made by him (credentials aren't so important. An argument either holds up or it doesn't).

05-19-2008, 11:18 PM	#8
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	The Jesus Myth Theory does not depend on Rook Hawkins' credentials, so his credentials are not especially relevant here.

05-20-2008, 12:47 AM	#10
GakuseiDon Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 5,714	There is a good thread on the RRS board where Rook discusses his credentials. It's 3 pages long, and raises questions on what the term "historian" means, and when does it apply? Rook argues that he qualifies as a "historian": http://www.rationalresponders.com/reply_troll

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