Johnny Skeptic

Deuteronomy 13:1-3 say "If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a miraculous sign or wonder, and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken takes place, and he says, 'Let us follow other gods' (gods you have not known) 'and let us worship them,' you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The Lord your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul." So, the Bible admits that bad people can predict the future too. More importantly, if it is fair for God to test us, then it is most certainly fair for us to test him. For purposes of this thred, I am not interested in anything that Christians can post regarding God's past behavior. I want to test him NOW. How can I perform such a test? We test our presidential candiates, don't we?

Alf

It is easy to test God.

If there is a god and he care for his fans, then when they pray he will generally tend to grant them their prayers.

If there is no god or he does not care about his fans then praying will have no effect.

Many religious people around the world pray. Does it have any effect? No. Not at all. It has been proven that prayer does not change the chance of the outcomes of what you pray for. If there was 20 percent chance for something happening if you did not pray it is still 20 percent chance after praying.

So, CHECK and FAILED.

So either there is no god or he doesn't care about his fans.

The believers test their god every time they pray. As already mentioned, prayer does not show any evidence of having any effect caused by any external invisible being modifying the chances for success or failure on any given outcomes.

Alf

Atheos

According to I Kings 18 Yahweh will upon demand send fire down from heaven and consume a burnt offering in order to prove his superiority over any other god. All we need are some idol worshippers to provide "competition" by calling on their god for a few hours and then one man of faith (in Yahweh) to call for Yahweh to do his thing.

I've heard lots of rationalizations but no compelling explanation of why the same test wouldn't be valid today.

-Atheos

achristianbeliever

How did you come to this conclusion? You said "it has been proven". For it to be proven you would have to prove that everytime says their prayers were answered it wasn't from God. Are you saying that because some people haven't had their prayers answered we should assume everyone who says the opposite is wrong by default? That's a lame argument. So go ahead explain how you have "proven" every answered prayer is not from God.

general_koffi

"But Jesus answered, "The scripture says, 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'" - Luke 4:12 GNB

"Jesus answered, "But the scripture also says, 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'" - Matt. 4:7 GNB

Seems awfully convenient for Christians, doesn't it?

Toto

Easy. There are statistical tests of the effect of prayer on healing. Long distance prayer has failed to show any statistically significant effect on the outcome of medical procedures.

So if the "answered" prayers are answered by God, there are also many unanswered prayers, and as many unprayed-for who get the same relief. Which makes God irrelevant.

achristianbeliever

I've read sites that display the healing power of prayer
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/485268.stm

And other sites that show the opposite
http://www.quackwatch.org/01Quackery...ics/faith.html

And sites that show that there is no absolute conclusion
http://www.religioustolerance.org/medical4.htm

I don't see anything that has given the ultimate proof for or against prayer healing.

Did you even read my post? I said,
"Are you saying that because some people haven't had their prayers answered we should assume everyone who says the opposite is wrong by default? "

You've just gave the exact statement that I find pointless. You haven't proven anything.

Toto

Note the date on that study - 1999. It was subsequently shown that the design was flawed, and later studies failed to find any difference. Another widely touted study showing that prayer could increase the success of in vitro fertilization was shown to be bogus.

You may never accept the proof, but the lack of evidence, after so many tries, is a good indication that there is nothing there.

I think we have a difference of opinion on what is needed for proof. You seem to want to require some absolute proof that God did not intervene. But how would you ever get that proof, except through the failure of study after study to find any difference between those who pray and those who don't?

Alf

It is a well known fact today that prayer have absolutely NO IMPACT on your situation.

People who pray do not get better jobs, better life situation, cured from diseases etc more often than people who do not pray.

On the individual level if you pray you may either get the prayer "answered" by having what you pray for come to fulfillment. There is no proof that there was any god behind this as usually pure random chance and other factors can explain the phenomena just as well.

More often though, the thing you pray for does not come into fulfillment. Prayers rationalize this by saying "God answered 'no'" or "not yet" or some such thing.

The point is that praying had absolutely no impact on the outcome. Well no impact is a bit strong, there can actually be some form of effect of prayer in certain cases.

It is known that when you pray you put your brain in a similar mode as a person who meditate. What hormones are then produced etc is very similar to that same state and causes many effects similar to those who take drugs. In fact drugs have such an effect on the human body exactly because they are similar to the body's own chemicals for bringing messages from brain to other parts so that you "feel good" and other things. Prayer does much of the same.

There can also be a placebo effect. The prayer believes so strongly that the prayer has an effect and that will in some cases give an effect. There doesn't have to be a god helping, it is the person himself who do the helping. This if of couse only for personal things. For example if you have some form of mental or physical situation with your own body, praying can actually have an effect just as placebo medicine might.

Lastly, the fact that a person pray for his son to get better in school can unconsciously allow the person to be a little more patient with his son and help him with his homework and assist him and thus lead to the result that little TImmy DOES get better in school.

So yeah, prayer CAN have an effect in some cases but in all cases it can be explained by effects as above. There is no place that a god must have been intervening and changing things so that the prayer come true. Also, the effects above are on the whole very small. People who do not pray but are instead patient with their son or daughter and help them with homework etc might find that their children also do better in school - without praying.

Similarly, people who do not pray can go to a doctor and get a placebo tablet and get better.

So, the benifits of praying are questionable to say the least.

This is, I believe, well documented by several studies.

Alf

Dean Anderson

I think it should not be argued that prayer does not have any effect.

Instead, it should be argued that prayer does not have any more effect than any other placebo.