Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Clivedurdle · 05-23-2006, 12:49 PM

Discussion in GRD about Baptism led me to some googling and this site.

http://mama.indstate.edu/users/nizra...efutation.html

Quote:

It is rather unfortunate that many well-meaning Jewish Studies teachers have unwittingly aided missionaries by teaching Jewish pupils incorrect information about the origins of Christianity. I can recall being taught the following story about Jesus at the Jewish day school I attended:

"Jesus was a famous first century rabbi whose Hebrew name was Rabbi Yehoshua. His father was a carpenter named Joseph and his mother's name was Mary. Mary became pregnant before she married Joseph. Jesus was born in a stable in Bethlehem during a Roman census. Jesus grew up in Nazareth and became a learned rabbi. He traveled all over Israel preaching that people should love one another. Some people thought that he was the Messiah and he did not deny this, which made the other rabbis very angry. He caused so much controversy that the Roman governor Pontius Pilate had him crucified. He was buried in a tomb and later his body was found to be missing since it had probably been stolen by his disciples." A few years after being taught this seemingly innocent story, I became interested in the origins of Christianity and decided to do some further reading on the "famous Rabbi Yehoshua." Much to my dismay, I discovered that there was no historical evidence of this Rabbi Yehoshua. The claim that Jesus was a rabbi named Yehoshua and the claim that his body was probably stolen both turned out to be pure conjecture. The rest of the story was nothing more than a watered down version of the story which Christians believe as part of the Christian religion but which is not supported by any legitimate historical source.
There was absolutely no historical evidence that Jesus, Joseph or Mary ever existed, let alone that Joseph was a carpenter or that Jesus was born in Bethlehem and lived in Nazareth.

Quote:

If Jesus was not an historical person, where did the whole New Testament story come from in the first place? The Hebrew name for Christians has always been Notzrim. This name is derived from the Hebrew word neitzer, which means a shoot or sprout--an obvious Messianic symbol. There were already people called Notzrim at the time of Rabbi Yehoshua ben Perachyah (c. 100 B.C.E.). Although modern Christians claim that Christianity only started in the first century C.E., it is clear that the first century Christians in Israel considered themselves to be a continuation of the Notzri movement which had been in existence for about 150 years. One of the most notorious Notzrim was Yeishu ben Pandeira, also known as Yeishu ha-Notzri. Talmudic scholars have always maintained that the story of Jesus began with Yeishu. The Hebrew name for Jesus has always been Yeishu and the Hebrew for "Jesus the Nazarene" has always been "Yeishu ha-Notzri." (The name Yeishu is a shortened form of the name Yeishua, not Yehoshua.) It is important to note that Yeishu ha-Notzri is not an historical Jesus since modern Christianity denies any connection between Jesus and Yeishu and moreover, parts of the Jesus myth are based on other historical people besides Yeishu.

We know very little about Yeishu ha-Notzri. All modern works that mention him are based on information taken from the Tosefta and the Baraitas - writings made at the same time as the Mishna but not contained in it. Because the historical information concerning Yeishu is so damaging to Christianity, most Christian authors (and even some Jewish ones) have tried to discredit this information and have invented many ingenious arguments to explain it away. Many of their arguments are based on misunderstandings and misquotations of the Baraitas and in order to get an accurate picture of Yeishu one should ignore Christian authors and examine the Baraitas directly.

Ratel · 05-23-2006, 01:19 PM

That summary of "Rabbi Yehoshua" is much softer than I would have expected from a Jewish source, I'd even describe it as complimentary. Enlightening reading.

Chris Weimer · 05-23-2006, 03:03 PM

This link has been passed around so many times it's not funny anymore.

Clivedurdle · 05-24-2006, 12:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Weimer

This link has been passed around so many times it's not funny anymore.

Popularity is not a measure of its validity or not. What is wrong about its argument?

post tenebras lux · 05-24-2006, 02:14 AM

At the end of that article they have this para:

Quote:

Originally Posted by a jewish perspective

Firstly, Christians claim that the Jewish historian Josephus recorded information about Jesus in his book Jewish Antiquities (published c. 93 - 94 C.E.) It is true that this book contains information about the three false Messiahs, Yehuda of Galilee, Theudas and Benjamin the Egyptian, and it is true that the character of Jesus appears to be based on all of them in part, but none of them can be regarded as the historical Jesus. Moreover, in the book of Acts, these people are mentioned as being different people to Jesus and so modern Christianity actually rejects any connection between them and Jesus. In the Christian edited versions of the Jewish Antiquities there are two passages dealing with Jesus as portrayed in Christian religious works. Neither of these passages are found in the original version of the Jewish Antiquities which was preserved by the Jews. The first passage (XVII, 3, 3) was quoted by Eusebius writing in c. 320 C.E. and so we can conclude that it was added in some time between the time Christians got hold of the Jewish Antiquities and c. 320 C.E. It is not known when the other passage (XX, 9, 1) was added in. Neither passage is based on any reliable sources. It is fraudulent to claim that these passages were written by Josephus and that they provide evidence for Jesus. They were written by Christian redactors and were based purely on Christian belief.

Does anyone know how old the oldest 'jewish' Josephus is and what do Christian apologetics say against this jewish claim (that their Josephus doesn't mention JC)? If it's just a case of 'the jews are liars, they're liars and they killed our saviour' then you don't have to bother.

Thanks

jjramsey · 05-24-2006, 05:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by post tenebras lux

Does anyone know how old the oldest 'jewish' Josephus is

I think the reference is to this:

Quote:

It is sometimes claimed that manuscripts before Eusebius do not have the passage in question. This is simply not true; there are no extant manuscripts before Eusebius. It is also sometimes pointed out that the Josippon, a medieval Hebrew version of Josephus, lacks the passage in question. However, Josippon is dependent on the text of the Antiquities preserved by Christians, so it is clear that the author of Josippon does not represent an independent manuscript tradition but rather purposely omits the passage.

From Peter Kirby's http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/testimonium.html

post tenebras lux · 05-24-2006, 06:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjramsey

I think the reference is to this:

So it's a case of shouting for Peter to come and explain his statement that 'Josippon is dependent on the text of the Antiquities preserved by Christians', I guess.

So, Peter, if you have the time ... :wave:

andrewcriddle · 05-24-2006, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by post tenebras lux

So it's a case of shouting for Peter to come and explain his statement that 'Josippon is dependent on the text of the Antiquities preserved by Christians', I guess.

So, Peter, if you have the time ... :wave:

For Josippon see
http://jewishencyclopedia.com/view.j...d=473&letter=J

Andrew Criddle

tcheng · 05-25-2006, 04:22 AM

hello,Jewish lies called Christ.

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05-23-2006, 01:19 PM	#2
Ratel Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: SD, USA Posts: 268	That summary of "Rabbi Yehoshua" is much softer than I would have expected from a Jewish source, I'd even describe it as complimentary. Enlightening reading.

05-23-2006, 03:03 PM	#3
Chris Weimer Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: none Posts: 9,879	This link has been passed around so many times it's not funny anymore.

05-25-2006, 04:22 AM	#9
tcheng Junior Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: China Posts: 40	hello,Jewish lies called Christ.

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