Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Adamu · 01-06-2008, 07:11 AM

The hebrew term "elohim," found some 2000 times in the Bible, is a morphologically plural word translated singularly as "God."

Is this accurate?

Solitary Man · 01-06-2008, 07:50 AM

No, that's not accurate. Depending on context, it sometimes refers to what it is literally, but as a singular noun (morphologically plural) it takes a singular adjective.

Adamu · 01-06-2008, 07:52 AM

And so what about those instances where it is used plurally?

As in "And God(s) said, let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness."

Is it really just the "plural majestic?"

Clivedurdle · 01-06-2008, 02:54 PM

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=232875

Eco notes that Elohim is untranslatable and we do not have a clue what it means!:devil1:

(Someone kindly show me a primary source describing its meaning!)

Quote:

In spite of such a confidence in the dynamic capacity of languages to evolve when exposed to a foreign challenge, we still have some difficulty in deciding if the Elohim who shows (or show) up at the beginning of the Bible can be truly translated as God,

Ch 4 Source vs target p 82.

Quote:

The Basque language..forgot to include in its vocabulary a term to designate God...

Minimalist · 01-06-2008, 03:33 PM

It's a really (really!) good question.

http://www.milon.co.il/general/general.php?term=elohim

Quote:

Elohim (אֱלוֹהִים , אלהים ) is a Hebrew word which expresses concepts of divinity. It is apparently related to the Hebrew word ēl, though morphologically it consists of the Hebrew word Eloah (אלוה) with a plural suffix. Elohim is the third word in the Hebrew text of Genesis and occurs frequently throughout the Hebrew Bible. Its exact significance is often disputed. In some cases (e.g. Exodus 3:4, "... Elohim called unto him out of the midst of the bush ..."), it acts as a singular noun in Hebrew grammar (see next section), and is then generally understood to denote the single God of Israel. In other cases, Elohim acts as an ordinary plural of the word Eloah (אלוה), and refers to the polytheistic notion of multiple gods (for example, Exodus 20:3, "Thou shalt have no other gods before me."). This may reflect the use of the word "Elohim" found in the late Bronze Age texts of Canaanite Ugarit, where Elohim ('lhm) was found to be a word denoting the entire Canaanite pantheon (the family of El אל, the patriarchal creator god).

Adamu · 01-06-2008, 03:44 PM

Good stuff!

I think it is rooted in the Akkadian "ilani" meaning essentially the same.

Here's the wiki article (though not a good "primary" source, it covers the basics and then some):
Elohim.

Ljoilae · 01-06-2008, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adamu

And so what about those instances where it is used plurally?

As in "And God(s) said, let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness."

Is it really just the "plural majestic?"

I've always doubted it is, just because it was natural for 18th century English royals to refer to themselves in the third person doesn't mean the same custom existed in an entirely unrelated culture and language three thousand years prior. It seems much more likely to me that people have ignorantly backwards projected the notion that a "royal 'we'" existed at that time and place than that anyone has actually researched it to find out. Plus it's so much easier for Christian apologetics to say it's "not really a polytheistic holdover" and hope no one asks "Well, did they even have a "royal we", does that make any damn sense at all?"

Adamu · 01-06-2008, 03:59 PM

Or rather that the plural majestic is employed in reference to the holy trinity, which rasies a whole Host of other questions (pun intended).

Minimalist · 01-06-2008, 06:15 PM

Louis the Fourteenth said "I am the state....not We are the state."

Eldarion Lathria · 01-06-2008, 06:24 PM

The 'plural majestic' does not seem to have been used before the thirteenth century. In Spain, as late as 1598 the form was "Yo, el rey" "I, the King". Elohim oriiginally was a plural noun.

Eldarion Lathria

01-06-2008, 07:11 AM	#1
Adamu Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Kentucky Posts: 126	Elohim = "gods" ? The hebrew term "elohim," found some 2000 times in the Bible, is a morphologically plural word translated singularly as "God." Is this accurate?

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01-06-2008, 07:50 AM	#2
Solitary Man Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: ירושלים Posts: 1,701	No, that's not accurate. Depending on context, it sometimes refers to what it is literally, but as a singular noun (morphologically plural) it takes a singular adjective.

01-06-2008, 07:52 AM	#3
Adamu Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Kentucky Posts: 126	And so what about those instances where it is used plurally? As in "And God(s) said, let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness." Is it really just the "plural majestic?"

01-06-2008, 03:44 PM	#6
Adamu Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Kentucky Posts: 126	Good stuff! I think it is rooted in the Akkadian "ilani" meaning essentially the same. Here's the wiki article (though not a good "primary" source, it covers the basics and then some): Elohim.

01-06-2008, 03:59 PM	#8
Adamu Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Kentucky Posts: 126	Or rather that the plural majestic is employed in reference to the holy trinity, which rasies a whole Host of other questions (pun intended).

01-06-2008, 06:15 PM	#9
Minimalist Veteran Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,808	Louis the Fourteenth said "I am the state....not We are the state."

01-06-2008, 06:24 PM	#10
Eldarion Lathria Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Atlantis Posts: 2,449	The 'plural majestic' does not seem to have been used before the thirteenth century. In Spain, as late as 1598 the form was "Yo, el rey" "I, the King". Elohim oriiginally was a plural noun. Eldarion Lathria

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