Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Dharma · 05-02-2005, 10:18 AM

A very interesting article on Antioch in Turkey which is where "CHristians" are first called Christians.

Interestingly enough this general Seleucid is a part of Indian history as his daughter was married to the Indian Emperor, Chandragupta who's grandson, Ashok sent forth a huge number of Buddhist missionaries. We also know that the remaining Greek armies and kings in Afghanistan and India converted to Buddhism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antioch

The city of Antioch-on-the-Orontes (modern Antakya) is located in what is now Turkey. It was founded near the end of the 4th century BC by Seleucus I Nicator, who made it the capital of his empire in Syria. Seleucus I had served as one of Alexander the Great's generals, and the name Antiochus occurred frequently amongst members of his family.

Antioch occupies an important place in the history of Christianity. It was here that Paul preached his first Christian sermon in a synagogue, and here that followers of Jesus were first called Christians (Acts 11:26). As Christianity spread, Antioch became the seat of one of the four original patriarchates, along with Jerusalem, Alexandria, and Rome. Today it remains the seat of a patriarchate of the Roman Catholic and Oriental Orthodox churches. One of the canonical Eastern Orthodox churches is still called the Antiochian Orthodox Church, although it moved its headquarters from Antioch to Damascus, Syria, several centuries ago (see list of Patriarchs of Antioch).

The ramparts of Antioch during the CrusadesFor several centuries Antioch was a major city in the Roman Empire with a population of a half million people. The emperor Aurelian erected several magnificent public structures, and later the emperor Constantius II erected an octogonal cathedral, which suffered in the earthquake of AD 526. The Persians captured the city in 540. The Byzantines recovered Antioch, only to have the Muslims conquer it in 636.

The city (as Arabic انتاكيّة Ant�?kiyyah) remained in Arab hands until 969, when it was recovered by the Byzantine Emperor Nicephorus II Phocas. The city was lost again, to the Seljuk Turks, in 1085. Thirteen years later, it was captured by the Crusaders during the First Crusade, and became the capital of an independent Principality of Antioch (see Siege of Antioch). The city remained in Crusader hands for the better part of the 12th and 13th centuries, until it was captured by the Mamluk Sultan Baibars in 1268. Baibars destruction of the city was so great that it was never a major city again, with much of its former role falling to the port city of Alexandretta (Iskenderun).

Antakya is the capital of the province Hatay.

Many other cities within the Seleucid empire were also named Antioch, most of them founded by Seleucus I Nicator. For instance Pisidian Antioch in Central-West Turkey is where Saint Paul gave his first sermon to the Gentiles.

Dharma · 05-02-2005, 10:33 AM

And this is getting more and more interesting by the minute

http://www.bu.edu/mzank/Jerusalem/p/period2-4-3.htm:

Main Jerusalem Timeline > City of YHWH > Hellenistic Polis> Seleucid
The peaceful century of Ptolemy rule over Judah/Palestine and Phoenicia ends when Antiochus III. ("the Great"), scion of the Seleucids ruling the Eastern parts of the lands conquered by Alexander, asserts his claim to Coele-Syria (including Judah/Palestine) by several military campaigns. A decisive victory at Panias (Banyas) in 198 forces the young Greco-Egyptian ruler, Ptolemy V., to yield. The Seleucid kingdom had reached the zenith of its power.

This period is both eventful and amply described in ancient sources, such as the writings of Josephus Flavius, a Jewish historian flourishing in the second half of the 1st century CE. Under Seleucid king Antiochus IV.'s ("Epiphanes") internal strife and external force culminate in an attempt to suspend the Torah and to convert Jerusalem into a Hellenistic polis (renamed "Antioch in Judaea"). This leads to the first religious persecutions in recorded history.

(Image: The coin bears a portrait of Seleukos I., one of Alexander's generals and the founder of the Seleucid kingdom which extended from Asia minor to the Hindukush).

Dharma · 05-02-2005, 10:39 AM

And Guess where the distant Indian Emperor Ashok sends the Missionaries to:

Home > article
http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/sec...ofbuddhism.asp
Buddhism
Section: The Spread of Buddhism
Related: Buddhist

In the 3d cent. BC the Indian emperor Asoka greatly strengthened Buddhism by his support and sent Buddhist missionaries as far afield as Syria. In succeeding centuries, however, the Hindu revival initiated the gradual decline of Buddhism in India. The invasions of the White Huns (6th cent.) and the Muslims (11th cent.) were also significant factors behind the virtual extinction of Buddhism in India by the 13th cent.

In the meantime, however, its beliefs had spread widely. Sri Lanka was converted to Buddhism in the 3d cent. BC, and Buddhism has remained its national religion. After taking up residence in Sri Lanka, the Indian Buddhist scholar Buddhaghosa (5th cent. AD) produced some of Theravada Buddhism's most important scholastic writings. In the 7th cent. Buddhism entered Tibet, where it has flourished, drawing its philosophical influences mainly from the Madhyamika, and its practices from the Tantra.

Buddhism came to SE Asia in the first five centuries AD All Buddhist schools were initially established, but the surviving forms today are mostly Theravada. About the 1st cent. AD Buddhism entered China along trade routes from central Asia, initiating a four-century period of gradual assimilation. In the 3d and 4th cent. Buddhist concepts were interpreted by analogy with indigenous ideas, mainly Taoist, but the work of the great translators Kumarajiva and Hsüan-tsang provided the basis for better understanding of Buddhist concepts.

The 6th cent. saw the development of the great philosophical schools, each centering on a certain scripture and having a lineage of teachers. Two such schools, the T'ien-t'ai and the Hua-Yen , hierarchically arranged the widely varying scriptures and doctrines that had come to China from India, giving preeminence to their own school and scripture. Branches of Madhyamika and Yogacara were also founded. The two great nonacademic sects were Ch'an or Zen Buddhism , whose chief practice was sitting in meditation to achieve “sudden enlightenment,�? and Pure Land Buddhism , which advocated repetition of the name of the Buddha Amitabha to attain rebirth in his paradise.

Chinese Buddhism encountered resistance from Confucianism and Taoism, and opposition from the government, which was threatened by the growing power of the tax-exempt sangha. The great persecution by the emperor Wu-tsung (845) dealt Chinese Buddhism a blow from which it never fully recovered. The only schools that retained vitality were Zen and Pure Land, which increasingly fused with one another and with the native traditions, and after the decline of Buddhism in India, neo-Confucianism rose to intellectual and cultural dominance.

From China and Korea, Buddhism came to Japan. Schools of philosophy and monastic discipline were transmitted first (6th cent.-8th cent.), but during the Heian period (794-1185) a conservative form of Tantric Buddhism became widely popular among the nobility. Zen and Pure Land grew to become popular movements after the 13th cent. After World War II new sects arose in Japan, such as the Soka Gakkai , an outgrowth of the nationalistic sect founded by Nichiren (1222-82), and the Risshokoseikai, attracting many followers.

---------------------

ahh, I am the divine internet surfer Buddha...

Dharma · 05-02-2005, 10:48 AM

"Buddhist tendencies helped to shape some of the Essenic characteristics." Dr. Moffatt,, Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics, vol. v, p.410

"King Ashoka of India (third century B.C.) sent Buddhist missionaries to different parts of the world, from Siberia to Ceylon, from China to Egypt, and for two centuries before the advent of Christ, the Buddhist missionaries preached the ethics of Buddha is Syria, Palestine and Alexandria. The Christian historian, Mahaffi, declared that the Buddhist missionaries were forerunners of Christ. “ Philosophers like Schelling and Schopenhauer, and Christian thinkers like Dean Mansel and D. Millman admit that the sect of the Essenes arose through the influence of the Buddhist missionaries who came from India. " (Complete works of Swami Abhedananda, vol.2, p. 120).

Toto · 05-02-2005, 11:00 AM

Hi Dharma - you seem to be talking to yourself here, but I think there may be something to this, although I don't have time to find my notes on this subject now. Joseph Campbell has something interesting to say (I don't know if it is online), as I recall. Robert Price has nothing to say about the possible Indian origins of Christianity, but has noticed some parallels in structure.

Clivedurdle · 05-02-2005, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Did Buddhism influence early Christianity?

The Times of India

Title: Did Buddhism influence early Christianity?
Author: N. S. Chandramouli
Publication: The Times of India Date : May 1, 1997

Long before the word 'missionary' came to be synonymous with Christianity, Buddhist monks were travelling across Asia, spreading their master's teachings along the Silk Route from Khotan in the east to Antioch in the west.

Indeed, many scholars hold that the religious traditions of the Silk Route regions, including the Levant, were significantly influenced by the Buddha's philosophy of compassion, his vision of Dhamma, the eternal law that sustains the cosmos and manifests itself among humans as the moral law.

Against this historical backdrop. some scholars have posed an interesting question: Were the teachings of Jesus the Nazarene a continuation, in Palestine, of the philosophy that Siddhartha Gautama had taught beside the Ganga 500 years earlier? In their book The Original Jesus (Element Books, Shaftesbury, 1995), Elmar R Gruber, an eminent psychologist, and Holger Kersten, a specialist in religious history and author of the best-selling Jesus Lived in India, offer compelling evidence of extensive Buddhist influence on the life and teachings of Jesus.

Arguing that 2,000 years of Church history have hidden the real historical Jesus, the authors promise to peel away the varnish and uncover him. Very little is known about Jesus' early years -in those years, Gruber and Kersten claim, Jesus was brought up by the Therapeutae, teachers of the Buddhist Theravada school then living in the Bible lands. The Therapeutae had been sent by the Mauryan emperor Ashoka on an embassy to Ptolemy II, king of Egypt, in 250 BC.

On arriving in Alexandria, Egypt's Hellenistic capital and a flourishing intellectual centre, the Therapeutae established themselves as a community. In his tract 'De Vita Contemplativa', Philo Judaeus, a contemporary of Jesus, described the Therapeutae as recluses devoted to poverty, celibacy, good deeds and compassion: such a religious brotherhood had no precedent in the Jewish world. The eminent linguist Zacharias P. Thundy observes that the word 'Therapeutae' is itself of Buddhist origin, being a Hellenisation of the Pali 'Theravada'.

Clearly, these Alexandrian Buddhists practised the Buddha's precept that his bhikshus should minister both to soul and body: Buddhist thought does not divorce physical balance from the quest for enlightenment. Gruber and Kersten suggest that Jesus's spiritual development, begun under the Therapeutae, was continued by the Essenes. The Dutch researcher Ernest de Bunsen theorised that Buddhist ideas were introduced to the Essenes by Jews living abroad, and that they later influenced the shaping of Christian dogma.

The word 'Essene' may derive from the Aramaic 'Yssyn', healer: like the Therapeutae, the Essenes believed that holy conduct and the powers of healing belonged together. Close, striking parallels exist between the early Buddhist texts and what Bible scholars term the 'Q' material -the sayings of Jesus as recorded in the Gospels of Matthew and Luke. 'Q' is shorthand for Quelle, the German for 'source': Matthew and Luke are believed to nave taken this material from the oldest corpus of Jesus' aphorisms in circulation among his followers.

The Buddha's most celebrated dictum is: "Hostility is never conquered by hostility in this world; hostility is conquered by love. That is the eternal law." Again, he says: "Surmount hatred by not hating, surmount evil with good; surmount greed through generosity, surmount lies with truth; speak what is true, do not succumb to anger, give when you are asked." Compare this with Jesus's advice in the New Testament: "... love your enemies, do good and without expecting anything in return. Your reward will be great, and you will be children of God."

...

I know it asks was Jesus in India, but can we check out what is factual? Is Therapeutae Buddhist?

What discussion has occurred or is it a subject that is ignored because of our western predication - well discussed by Said in Orientalism to put down everything that comes out of the East?

Times of India

andrewcriddle · 05-02-2005, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

...

I know it asks was Jesus in India, but can we check out what is factual? Is Therapeutae Buddhist?

Philo (who is our only primary source on the Therapeutae) appears to derive their name from the Greek ThERAPEUW to serve or to heal (Philo On the Contemplative Life ). This would seem much more likely than the suggested derivation from Theravada.

Andrew Criddle

Clivedurdle · 05-02-2005, 01:01 PM

Doesn't help! Alexander got to India, very strong links between Greek and Eastern ideas - "on the contemplative life" sounds like a Buddhist treatise!

Quote:

The eminent linguist Zacharias P. Thundy observes that the word 'Therapeutae' is itself of Buddhist origin, being a Hellenisation of the Pali 'Theravada'.

Clivedurdle · 05-02-2005, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Historically it is perhaps of some importance as giving an account of an institution with some of the marks of later monasticism for which we have no parallel either without or within the Judaism of the times. And the importance would be much greater if we could suppose that this Alexandrian community was of a type widespread through the world outside. The opening words of section 21 may at first suggest that this was so and the argument of Lucius who maintained that the treatise was spurious was primarily based on this assumption. The Therapeutae, he argued, are said by the author to have been found in many places; if it were so we must have heard of them from other sources, and as we do not hear of them the whole thing must be a fiction.

Has the elephant in the room of Buddhism been ignored?

Quote:

The thing began when Eusebius, Hist. Eccl. ii. 17 discovered in the Therapeutae a picture of the first Christian converts

Clivedurdle · 05-02-2005, 01:55 PM

Quote:

More and more researchers became convinced that Christianity has been directly influenced by Buddhism. Today evidence is overwhelming. In John’s Gospel Buddhist ideas occur sentence after sentence. It is permeated with these ideas to such an extent that theologian J. Edgar Burns has felt obliged to write a book on this matter titled The Christian Buddhism of St. John. According to Buddhism Dharma is the great cosmic law underlying our world, corresponding to the concept of the Word (Logos), in the Gospel of John which begins by declaring, “The word was God.�? History reveals that Buddhist elements in the New Testament are not the result of chance. On the contrary they were first disseminated by Jesus himself. So if someone says that Jesus was not a Christian, but a Buddhist, would he face an uprising? No! No one would care less, because the real Jesus is immersed so deep in a pool of confusion that it is almost impossible to find him. Therefore the Church and its creation is safe, and no one cares.

Geocities .

05-02-2005, 10:18 AM	#1
Dharma Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: U.S. Posts: 1,398	Is Christianity western BUDDHISM?? A very interesting article on Antioch in Turkey which is where "CHristians" are first called Christians. Interestingly enough this general Seleucid is a part of Indian history as his daughter was married to the Indian Emperor, Chandragupta who's grandson, Ashok sent forth a huge number of Buddhist missionaries. We also know that the remaining Greek armies and kings in Afghanistan and India converted to Buddhism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antioch The city of Antioch-on-the-Orontes (modern Antakya) is located in what is now Turkey. It was founded near the end of the 4th century BC by Seleucus I Nicator, who made it the capital of his empire in Syria. Seleucus I had served as one of Alexander the Great's generals, and the name Antiochus occurred frequently amongst members of his family. Antioch occupies an important place in the history of Christianity. It was here that Paul preached his first Christian sermon in a synagogue, and here that followers of Jesus were first called Christians (Acts 11:26). As Christianity spread, Antioch became the seat of one of the four original patriarchates, along with Jerusalem, Alexandria, and Rome. Today it remains the seat of a patriarchate of the Roman Catholic and Oriental Orthodox churches. One of the canonical Eastern Orthodox churches is still called the Antiochian Orthodox Church, although it moved its headquarters from Antioch to Damascus, Syria, several centuries ago (see list of Patriarchs of Antioch). The ramparts of Antioch during the CrusadesFor several centuries Antioch was a major city in the Roman Empire with a population of a half million people. The emperor Aurelian erected several magnificent public structures, and later the emperor Constantius II erected an octogonal cathedral, which suffered in the earthquake of AD 526. The Persians captured the city in 540. The Byzantines recovered Antioch, only to have the Muslims conquer it in 636. The city (as Arabic انتاكيّة Ant�?kiyyah) remained in Arab hands until 969, when it was recovered by the Byzantine Emperor Nicephorus II Phocas. The city was lost again, to the Seljuk Turks, in 1085. Thirteen years later, it was captured by the Crusaders during the First Crusade, and became the capital of an independent Principality of Antioch (see Siege of Antioch). The city remained in Crusader hands for the better part of the 12th and 13th centuries, until it was captured by the Mamluk Sultan Baibars in 1268. Baibars destruction of the city was so great that it was never a major city again, with much of its former role falling to the port city of Alexandretta (Iskenderun). Antakya is the capital of the province Hatay. Many other cities within the Seleucid empire were also named Antioch, most of them founded by Seleucus I Nicator. For instance Pisidian Antioch in Central-West Turkey is where Saint Paul gave his first sermon to the Gentiles.

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05-02-2005, 10:33 AM	#2
Dharma Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: U.S. Posts: 1,398	And this is getting more and more interesting by the minute http://www.bu.edu/mzank/Jerusalem/p/period2-4-3.htm: Main Jerusalem Timeline > City of YHWH > Hellenistic Polis> Seleucid The peaceful century of Ptolemy rule over Judah/Palestine and Phoenicia ends when Antiochus III. ("the Great"), scion of the Seleucids ruling the Eastern parts of the lands conquered by Alexander, asserts his claim to Coele-Syria (including Judah/Palestine) by several military campaigns. A decisive victory at Panias (Banyas) in 198 forces the young Greco-Egyptian ruler, Ptolemy V., to yield. The Seleucid kingdom had reached the zenith of its power. This period is both eventful and amply described in ancient sources, such as the writings of Josephus Flavius, a Jewish historian flourishing in the second half of the 1st century CE. Under Seleucid king Antiochus IV.'s ("Epiphanes") internal strife and external force culminate in an attempt to suspend the Torah and to convert Jerusalem into a Hellenistic polis (renamed "Antioch in Judaea"). This leads to the first religious persecutions in recorded history. (Image: The coin bears a portrait of Seleukos I., one of Alexander's generals and the founder of the Seleucid kingdom which extended from Asia minor to the Hindukush).

05-02-2005, 10:39 AM	#3
Dharma Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: U.S. Posts: 1,398	And Guess where the distant Indian Emperor Ashok sends the Missionaries to: Home > article http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/sec...ofbuddhism.asp Buddhism Section: The Spread of Buddhism Related: Buddhist In the 3d cent. BC the Indian emperor Asoka greatly strengthened Buddhism by his support and sent Buddhist missionaries as far afield as Syria. In succeeding centuries, however, the Hindu revival initiated the gradual decline of Buddhism in India. The invasions of the White Huns (6th cent.) and the Muslims (11th cent.) were also significant factors behind the virtual extinction of Buddhism in India by the 13th cent. In the meantime, however, its beliefs had spread widely. Sri Lanka was converted to Buddhism in the 3d cent. BC, and Buddhism has remained its national religion. After taking up residence in Sri Lanka, the Indian Buddhist scholar Buddhaghosa (5th cent. AD) produced some of Theravada Buddhism's most important scholastic writings. In the 7th cent. Buddhism entered Tibet, where it has flourished, drawing its philosophical influences mainly from the Madhyamika, and its practices from the Tantra. Buddhism came to SE Asia in the first five centuries AD All Buddhist schools were initially established, but the surviving forms today are mostly Theravada. About the 1st cent. AD Buddhism entered China along trade routes from central Asia, initiating a four-century period of gradual assimilation. In the 3d and 4th cent. Buddhist concepts were interpreted by analogy with indigenous ideas, mainly Taoist, but the work of the great translators Kumarajiva and Hsüan-tsang provided the basis for better understanding of Buddhist concepts. The 6th cent. saw the development of the great philosophical schools, each centering on a certain scripture and having a lineage of teachers. Two such schools, the T'ien-t'ai and the Hua-Yen , hierarchically arranged the widely varying scriptures and doctrines that had come to China from India, giving preeminence to their own school and scripture. Branches of Madhyamika and Yogacara were also founded. The two great nonacademic sects were Ch'an or Zen Buddhism , whose chief practice was sitting in meditation to achieve “sudden enlightenment,�? and Pure Land Buddhism , which advocated repetition of the name of the Buddha Amitabha to attain rebirth in his paradise. Chinese Buddhism encountered resistance from Confucianism and Taoism, and opposition from the government, which was threatened by the growing power of the tax-exempt sangha. The great persecution by the emperor Wu-tsung (845) dealt Chinese Buddhism a blow from which it never fully recovered. The only schools that retained vitality were Zen and Pure Land, which increasingly fused with one another and with the native traditions, and after the decline of Buddhism in India, neo-Confucianism rose to intellectual and cultural dominance. From China and Korea, Buddhism came to Japan. Schools of philosophy and monastic discipline were transmitted first (6th cent.-8th cent.), but during the Heian period (794-1185) a conservative form of Tantric Buddhism became widely popular among the nobility. Zen and Pure Land grew to become popular movements after the 13th cent. After World War II new sects arose in Japan, such as the Soka Gakkai , an outgrowth of the nationalistic sect founded by Nichiren (1222-82), and the Risshokoseikai, attracting many followers. --------------------- ahh, I am the divine internet surfer Buddha...

05-02-2005, 10:48 AM	#4
Dharma Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: U.S. Posts: 1,398	"Buddhist tendencies helped to shape some of the Essenic characteristics." Dr. Moffatt,, Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics, vol. v, p.410 "King Ashoka of India (third century B.C.) sent Buddhist missionaries to different parts of the world, from Siberia to Ceylon, from China to Egypt, and for two centuries before the advent of Christ, the Buddhist missionaries preached the ethics of Buddha is Syria, Palestine and Alexandria. The Christian historian, Mahaffi, declared that the Buddhist missionaries were forerunners of Christ. “ Philosophers like Schelling and Schopenhauer, and Christian thinkers like Dean Mansel and D. Millman admit that the sect of the Essenes arose through the influence of the Buddhist missionaries who came from India. " (Complete works of Swami Abhedananda, vol.2, p. 120).

05-02-2005, 11:00 AM	#5
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Hi Dharma - you seem to be talking to yourself here, but I think there may be something to this, although I don't have time to find my notes on this subject now. Joseph Campbell has something interesting to say (I don't know if it is online), as I recall. Robert Price has nothing to say about the possible Indian origins of Christianity, but has noticed some parallels in structure.

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