GakuseiDon

Today I read an interesting open letter by Alice Walker, the author of "The Color Purple", written to Barack Obama, and it made me think of Paul's occasional letters to the Gentile Churches.

Some quotes (full letter in the link, and my bolding below):
http://www.nowpublic.com/world/alice...barack-obama-1

And yet, this observation is not intended to burden you, for you are of a different time, and, indeed, because of all the relay runners before you, North America is a different place. It is really only to say: Well done. We knew, through all the generations, that you were with us, in us, the best of the spirit of Africa and of the Americas. Knowing this, that you would actually appear, someday, was part of our strength. Seeing you take your rightful place, based solely on your wisdom, stamina and character, is a balm for the weary warriors of hope, previously only sung about...

Because, finally, it is the soul that must be preserved, if one is to remain a credible leader. All else might be lost; but when the soul dies, the connection to earth, to peoples, to animals, to rivers, to mountain ranges, purple and majestic, also dies. And your smile, with which we watch you do gracious battle with unjust characterizations, distortions and lies, is that expression of healthy self-worth, spirit and soul, that, kept happy and free and relaxed, can find an answering smile in all of us, lighting our way, and brightening the world.

I find that there are interesting parallels in her language that reflects Paul's, including how Obama is "in us", etc, as bolded above.

No, I'm not saying that she is treating Obama as non-historical, so if you want to stretch my analogy beyond the point I'm trying to make and claim "therefore your analogy fails!" then fair enough. I just found the letter intriguing in light of the discussions we have around Paul on this board.

youngalexander

Parallels, yes of course. We all feel this. These are perilous times, we seek salvation, a leader, we hope that one has arisen.

Add to that the natural desires of the Afro-American community and many another minorities besides (including that of this board).

The 1st C was a perilous time for palistinian Jews. Paul reacted in accordance with human psychology - but I do not perceive that as adding to the historicity of his adulation.

spamandham

In the short letter you linked, there are many references that nail Obama down as historical. The same is not true in regard to Paul and Jesus. Within Paul, there are only a few bits that nail Jesus down, and mostly in portions various qualified scholars argue to be interpolations.

mountainman

Dear GakuseiDon,

The rhetoric is of high standard. Dynamic. Transcendental with nationalistic appeal. Just like the author of Paul.

Best wishes,


Pete

Toto

Alice Walker writes fiction. She uses religious metaphor and imagery.

More by Walker on Barack Obama.

So what is the point here? Was Paul a fiction writer?

Notice that Alice Walker combines imaginative imagery with concrete, highly detailed descriptions of her subject and reference to recent events. Paul has imaginative imagery and . . . what? A few phrases that are formulaic and possibly inserted by a later editor to bring Paul in line with the correct line on the historical Jesus. Does Paul talk about Jesus' smile? His stamina and character? His grace is rebutting the lies and distortions told about him by Republicans? Does he mention anyone advising Jesus to take the time to relax and pay attention to his family?

GakuseiDon

I had the same feeling reading her as I do when reading Paul. (I wonder how easy it would be to rewrite it to make it into a letter about Christ, with only a few interpolations.) Anyway, I was offering it as something that may provide an insight into Paul's letters rather than progressing the great HJ/MJ debate, which interests me less than trying to get a handle on how they thought back then.

Toto

How would this provide insight into Paul? Paul and Christianity in general are part of the cultural background that Alice Walker draws on, along with other religious themes from modern feminist goddess worship. You might learn about what Alice Walker feels about a savior. What would this tell you about Paul?

GakuseiDon

I'm almost embarrassed to say that Mountainman alone seems to understand where I am coming from. :constern01:

This has nothing directly to do with mythicism. Mythicism is, for me, a dead issue. I'm interested in how people thought back then. Since there is no evidence (IMHO) that they thought the way many mythicists claim, then its not something I'm interested in -- at least until the evidence gets presented. Maybe I'll get interested again when Doherty or Carrier publish.

So: I think the similarities of the use of metaphor between Walker and Paul is interesting, and thought I'd bring it to people's attention.

mountainman

Dear GakuseiDon,

I'm almost embarrassed to say that's one of the nicest things anyone has ever said to me recently. I wouldn't make a habit of saying things like this often since people may get the wrong idea.

In the Roman empire between the first and the end of the fourth centuries those who were regarded as the preservers of knowledge - the academic class of people - thought in greek. Rhetoricians who could stir the thinking of people in greek (and also latin, etc) were highly regarded, and bards wandered hither and thither dispensing oriental and other-worldly thoughts into the milieu. The milieu itself, was cooperative and collegiate (until Constantine became the Pontifex Maximus of that cooperative and collegiate network of temples, shrines and libraries we now fondly think of as the posterity of the ancient Greek civilisation. The scribal duties, and the physical preservation of texts appears to me to have been conducted by the priests of this network of temples, shrines and libraries, and these "priests" were trained greek academics; scribes of varying excellence: preservers. The preservation of literature was one of the "high technologies" of antiquity. (Like for example "Information Technology" in todays world). The greeks preserved the greek (and of course alot more, eg: Origen's "Hexapla"), and the Romans also preserved their own records, until the epoch of Constantine.

In short, aside from the difference in language, and the differences in the subject matter available then and now (ie: the world around them and its "objects"), the process of thinking back then could not be too different from the process of thinking today. It may have had greater clarity in certain issues: Archimedes, Plato, Pythagoras, Euclid et al, and hosts of authors in antiquity were nowhere near "uneducated" (IMO).

At the end of the day it appears on the surface to still be a very much political world. We can be sure that just as your cited literature was intended to be a contribution to a political situation, so too did the author of Paul, intend, at the time of the "authorship of Paul". The transcendental appeal is always a valuable commodity of chrestos rhetoric. History often takes a back seat at these times.


Best wishes,



Pete

Toto

Why do you think he understands you? He said "The rhetoric is of high standard. Dynamic. Transcendental with nationalistic appeal. Just like the author of Paul." Do you know what he meant? What did Paul ever write with "nationalistic appeal?"


There are similarities and differences. Do you think the similarities could be related to the fact that Paul's rhetoric is part of the culture that Walker grew up in? Do you think that Walker might think like Paul? Do all people who use the same metaphors think alike?

Please justify this thread being in this forum.