Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Wallener · 05-16-2005, 02:14 PM

The same trilogy of names - Joshua, Judah and Simeon - is prominent in both the Promised Land/pre-Exile and Christian origins stories. Are there any reliable works looking at the relationship from a mythicist angle?

Wallener · 05-16-2005, 02:40 PM

Maybe it would help if I actually spelled out the (barely) formative thought rattling 'round my skull...

Old Joshua, Messiah figure -> New Joshua, Messiah figure
Old 10/9 Tribes -> New Judah
Old Judah/Simeon -> New Simeon

If you follow the model that says Josiahics took history and myths and recast them theologically to create the story as we have it, it would seem to make sense that some kind of institutional memory of that creation would still be lingering post-Exile. So why not do it again, in the midsts of new troubles?

The role of the Northern Tribes need to be recast because they're long-gone (Mel Brooks logic: easier to make fun of Nazis than Romans because Nazis are more familiar). There are only two tribes left, Judah and the more or less assimilated Simeon. Judah sells out, betrays Messiah, leaving only Simeon "The Rock" as a Masada-like "don't mix with us!" symbol of true Yahweh-ism. Heck, you even have the father of New Joshua being named after the son of Jacob who was split into...two tribes.

Something tells me I'm about to get a link to a prior thread on this.

Toto · 05-16-2005, 03:09 PM

The correspondence between Joshua and Jesus is well known. I don't recall anyone drawing out any correspondences between Simeon and Simon Peter, but it sounds intriguing.

Wallener · 05-16-2005, 03:52 PM

In Samaritan tradition, the Messiah is "Taheb", which derives from "repentant", and will be born from the tribe of Joseph. Also in Samaritan tradition, Christians are apostates from the tribe of Ephraim, and Ephraim is, you guessed it, one of the two tribes from twelve-sons Joseph.

Samaritans are leftovers from the northern kingdom. If Finklestein etc are right about the Deutero books being an exercise in "theological history" to justify the southern kingdom's place as standard-bearer for G-d - Samaritans reject all books from Joshua onwards - maybe the place to look for the Jesus Myth origins (if they exist) is in non-Judahite material. Is it possible that what became Jesus started life as the Samaritan/Northern equivalent of Josiah?

I'll have to think about this some more.

Anat · 05-16-2005, 08:53 PM

Wallener, do you think the Samaritan tradition has anything to do with the belief in a Messiah son of Joseph, who is expected to attempt redemption and fail prior to the coming of Messiah son of David?

Let's not forget that the original Joshua was from Ephraim. Is he the Samaritan equivalent of David?

05-16-2005, 02:14 PM	#1
Wallener Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Vancouver Posts: 1,043	Joshua, Judah and Simeon Part Deux The same trilogy of names - Joshua, Judah and Simeon - is prominent in both the Promised Land/pre-Exile and Christian origins stories. Are there any reliable works looking at the relationship from a mythicist angle?

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05-16-2005, 02:40 PM	#2
Wallener Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Vancouver Posts: 1,043	Maybe it would help if I actually spelled out the (barely) formative thought rattling 'round my skull... Old Joshua, Messiah figure -> New Joshua, Messiah figure Old 10/9 Tribes -> New Judah Old Judah/Simeon -> New Simeon If you follow the model that says Josiahics took history and myths and recast them theologically to create the story as we have it, it would seem to make sense that some kind of institutional memory of that creation would still be lingering post-Exile. So why not do it again, in the midsts of new troubles? The role of the Northern Tribes need to be recast because they're long-gone (Mel Brooks logic: easier to make fun of Nazis than Romans because Nazis are more familiar). There are only two tribes left, Judah and the more or less assimilated Simeon. Judah sells out, betrays Messiah, leaving only Simeon "The Rock" as a Masada-like "don't mix with us!" symbol of true Yahweh-ism. Heck, you even have the father of New Joshua being named after the son of Jacob who was split into...two tribes. Something tells me I'm about to get a link to a prior thread on this.

05-16-2005, 03:09 PM	#3
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	The correspondence between Joshua and Jesus is well known. I don't recall anyone drawing out any correspondences between Simeon and Simon Peter, but it sounds intriguing.

05-16-2005, 03:52 PM	#4
Wallener Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Vancouver Posts: 1,043	In Samaritan tradition, the Messiah is "Taheb", which derives from "repentant", and will be born from the tribe of Joseph. Also in Samaritan tradition, Christians are apostates from the tribe of Ephraim, and Ephraim is, you guessed it, one of the two tribes from twelve-sons Joseph. Samaritans are leftovers from the northern kingdom. If Finklestein etc are right about the Deutero books being an exercise in "theological history" to justify the southern kingdom's place as standard-bearer for G-d - Samaritans reject all books from Joshua onwards - maybe the place to look for the Jesus Myth origins (if they exist) is in non-Judahite material. Is it possible that what became Jesus started life as the Samaritan/Northern equivalent of Josiah? I'll have to think about this some more.

05-16-2005, 08:53 PM	#5
Anat Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: home Posts: 3,715	Wallener, do you think the Samaritan tradition has anything to do with the belief in a Messiah son of Joseph, who is expected to attempt redemption and fail prior to the coming of Messiah son of David? Let's not forget that the original Joshua was from Ephraim. Is he the Samaritan equivalent of David?

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