Freethought & Rationalism Archive

TomboyMom · 06-01-2006, 08:43 AM

This exchange comes from another thread in GRD:

Quote:

Originally Posted by funinspace

Christ history exists in a vacuum outside of the canon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patriot7

So you are woefully ignorant of basic facts. Christ is mentioned in no less then (17) extrabiblical sources.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomboyMom

Please name the 17 authentic extrabiblical sources in which Jesus Christ is mentioned, in particular as actually existing as opposed to merely being reputed to exist. If any document that he was resurrected or was considered by the writer to be the Son of God, that would be even better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patriot7

1. Clement of Rome,
2. Eusebius
3. Flavius Josephus
4. Ignatius
5. Irenaeus
6. Jewish Talmuds
7. Julius Africanus who
cites both Thallus and Phlegon
8. Justin Martyr
9. Letter of Mara Bar-Serapion
10. Lucian of Samosata
11. Papias
12. Pliny the Younger
13. Polycarp
14. Suetonius
15. Tacitus
16. Tatian
17.Tertullian.

Can you help me analyse what these are, where they come from, whether they are authentic, what they say, etc. Thank you.

gstafleu · 06-01-2006, 08:53 AM

I'm sure people who know much more than I will jump in here. But I'm pretty sure that the large majority of this list was just commenting on the NT. This is like adding BC&H to the list

.

I think that only Josephus, Tacitus and Suetonius can possibly be seen as independent, all three with various foornotes and caveats though.

darstec · 06-01-2006, 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomboyMom

This exchange comes from another thread in GRD:

Can you help me analyse what these are, where they come from, whether they are authentic, what they say, etc. Thank you.

You can safely remove Papias from the list. Nothing exists from him. All we have are some few fragments copied from Eusebius that pretends to quote from Papias.

cognac · 06-01-2006, 09:30 AM

Here is a resource. "Jesus Outside the New Testament: An Introduction to the Ancient Evidence." You can do the Amazon "read online" thingy.

Amazon link (or via: amazon.co.uk)

TomboyMom · 06-01-2006, 09:38 AM

What's that thingy? How do you do that? tx.

Ezkerraldean · 06-01-2006, 09:41 AM

of course jesus was a real person.

i remember reading somewhere that some guy digged up a coffin that said on it "james, son of joseph, brother of jesus". couldnt have been more than a few years ago. interestingly suggests jesus had a brother who wasnt mentioned in the bible.

TomboyMom · 06-01-2006, 09:50 AM

Starting from what I can find via Google, (1) Clement of Rome:
He was one of the first fathers of the church, Bishop of Rome, who wrote a couple of letters to the Corinthians around 96 A.D. That is, he was a Christian, writing to other Christians, about Christian stuff. I don't think this is where we would look for unbiased third party references to Jesus. Of course he believed in Jesus--he was the Bishop! Also, it was written about 60 years after Jesus died. So I don't think anyone would count that as any kind of useful extra-biblical reference.

Toto · 06-01-2006, 10:04 AM

These sources have been analyzed to death. Patriot7 has thrown in some second and third century Christian writers who would not have been witnesses or privy to primary sources. None are very persuasive. You can find some previous threads, or search the secweb library.

This is a good place to start: The Jury in In chapter 5

Berthold · 06-01-2006, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ezkerraldean

interestingly suggests jesus had a brother who wasnt mentioned in the bible.

Siblings of Jesus are mentioned in the bible. Catholic interpretation explains them away as "a way of speaking about cousins".

The bible also says that Joseph did not "know" his wife until she had delivered her firstborn. Catholicism puts one on top, asserting, "afterwards, neither".

TomboyMom · 06-01-2006, 10:35 AM

O.K., working my way down the list:
Eusebius
This would be Eusebius of Ceasaria, a church historian who lived around 295-339 C.E. Patriot7: Is this your idea of a contemporary, someone who lived almost 300 years later? This makes me not want to bother with the rest of the list. I mean, there are probably millions of references to Jesus outside of the bible, but if they're not remotely contemporary, and by Christians, they don't exactly provide independent corroboration, do they? I really think you owe funinspace another apology, this time for calling him woefully ignorant. He certainly doesn't seem to be any more ignorant than you.

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06-01-2006, 08:53 AM	#2
gstafleu Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: London, Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,719	I'm sure people who know much more than I will jump in here. But I'm pretty sure that the large majority of this list was just commenting on the NT. This is like adding BC&H to the list . I think that only Josephus, Tacitus and Suetonius can possibly be seen as independent, all three with various foornotes and caveats though.

06-01-2006, 09:30 AM	#4
cognac Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Why am I still up? It's way past my bedtime. Posts: 508	Here is a resource. "Jesus Outside the New Testament: An Introduction to the Ancient Evidence." You can do the Amazon "read online" thingy. Amazon link (or via: amazon.co.uk)

06-01-2006, 09:38 AM	#5
TomboyMom Contributor Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 10,931	What's that thingy? How do you do that? tx.

06-01-2006, 09:41 AM	#6
Ezkerraldean Veteran Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: transatlantically challenged (UK/canada) Posts: 2,688	of course jesus was a real person. i remember reading somewhere that some guy digged up a coffin that said on it "james, son of joseph, brother of jesus". couldnt have been more than a few years ago. interestingly suggests jesus had a brother who wasnt mentioned in the bible.

06-01-2006, 09:50 AM	#7
TomboyMom Contributor Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 10,931	Starting from what I can find via Google, (1) Clement of Rome: He was one of the first fathers of the church, Bishop of Rome, who wrote a couple of letters to the Corinthians around 96 A.D. That is, he was a Christian, writing to other Christians, about Christian stuff. I don't think this is where we would look for unbiased third party references to Jesus. Of course he believed in Jesus--he was the Bishop! Also, it was written about 60 years after Jesus died. So I don't think anyone would count that as any kind of useful extra-biblical reference.

06-01-2006, 10:04 AM	#8
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	These sources have been analyzed to death. Patriot7 has thrown in some second and third century Christian writers who would not have been witnesses or privy to primary sources. None are very persuasive. You can find some previous threads, or search the secweb library. This is a good place to start: The Jury in In chapter 5

06-01-2006, 10:35 AM	#10
TomboyMom Contributor Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 10,931	O.K., working my way down the list: Eusebius This would be Eusebius of Ceasaria, a church historian who lived around 295-339 C.E. Patriot7: Is this your idea of a contemporary, someone who lived almost 300 years later? This makes me not want to bother with the rest of the list. I mean, there are probably millions of references to Jesus outside of the bible, but if they're not remotely contemporary, and by Christians, they don't exactly provide independent corroboration, do they? I really think you owe funinspace another apology, this time for calling him woefully ignorant. He certainly doesn't seem to be any more ignorant than you.

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