mung bean

From the "Pyramids and all that" thread:
Also in that thread AFDave posted this:
So we'll assume he's a gentleman of his word and eager to show us his arguments.
The population projections in question can be found on this link:
http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...31#post4578531

Looking forward to reading your brilliant and scintillating demolition of the cynics, Mr Hawkins.

deadman_932

Although I despise argument via Wikipedia, that source says Dave's fantastic figures would be the highest annual growth rates EVAH.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population_estimates also gives some nice estimates on past population levels, a table o' them from various sources -- http://www.census.gov/ipc/www/worldhis.html

Katastrophikus

Hey. When the old man says: "Go forth and multiply," it's best to take it to heart and get down to business.
It does present a problem as to when they did they find the time to build a tower, or anything really, amidst what must have been an all time orgy and baby-producing machinery.

Pappy Jack

As Dave's evidence base for his 'model' is a few begats and some nonsense about the centuries-long lifespans of a handful of 'patriarchs' from that work of mostly creative fiction known as the Bible, he can reverse engineer said model to produce whatever result he wants: stand by for a period of monstrous post-Flud fecundity.

mung bean

Thought I'd bump this since Dave seems active at the moment.
Care to address this topic, Dave?

Cege

And according to Genesis 11, God dispersed the earth's population (because they had had begun building the tower at Babel) "over the face of the whole earth". That means the purported population of 5463 would need to be divided at least by the number of continents if people were scattered across the entire world.

The entire 5463 wouldn't be available in Egypt to build the first pyramid. What kind of population model would be in Eqypt to begin the 80 year period the pyramids were built?

Minimalist

Jeez....you guys offer facts. How can you hope to compete with dumb, blind, faith?

Dave Hawkins

1) TOWER REACHING TO HEAVEN? Why do you suppose that the King James rendering of the text ... "build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven" ... is correct? The King James translation is not inspired. Adam Clarke, well known 19th century Bible commentator, has this to say about this passage ... So we really cannot say for sure that it was a massive structure like the Great Pyramid.

2) POPULATION GROWTH. My father is a Bible Translator for a South American Indian tribe called Wai wai. When he began working with them in 1949, there were about 400 Wai Wais. Now there are about 4000. This is 4% annual growth over 58 years. This should tell you two things: 1) small founding populations can be viable genetically, and 2) small populations can grow rapidly. There is every reason to believe that the sons of Noah and their descendants would have experienced at least this rate of growth early on. I posted a Post-Flood Population Growth Chart on the "Pyramids" thread, and you can read the assumptions there in that post. The "no deaths from old age" assumption comes from the "Long-lived pre-Flood patriarchs" assumption which carried well into the early post-Flood period. I began a new thread to discuss this HERE. Below you will find the same chart except I upped the number of children who reproduce as indicated. Where did I come up with these numbers? I just plugged in numbers of kids which give an approximation of the Wai wai Indian situation described above. If you look at Year 90 and Year 150, you see a Total Population of 344 and 4187, which is close to the actual figures given above for the Wai wai tribe. If we do this, you can see that we have 51,248 people by Year 210 from the Flood, plenty to build a Tower.


3) SMYTH'S GP DATE IS MORE FIRM THAT HIS FLOOD AND DISPERSION DATES. Dean Anderson has acknowledged that he was wrong about Smyth and his astronomical dating of the building of the Great Pyramid, and as you will see on the Pyramid thread (when I get around to posting it), Smyth has more reasons for the 2170 BC date than just the alignment with Alpha Draconis. Dean also seems to be unaware of this. So I am fairly confident about Smyth's GP date and I think you may be too before long. But I am not so confident about his Flood date and Dispersion date. They could be off. If the Flood really happened earlier than Smyth's 2743 figure, then of course, there could have been more time until Babel.

Roland

The people in the early Bible stories don't seem all that prolific to me.

Take the case of Noah. He was supposedly around 500 years old when the flood hit, yet, as far as we know, he had only THREE sons to show for all that time (or at least three who were worthy to be taken into the ark with him). Of those three sons (and who even knows what their ages might have been at the time), not a single one of them had a child, though all were married.

If this family was typical of birth rates in those days, it's a wonder ANYBODY's alive on this planet to even discuss such things.

Pappy Jack

And what was the growth rate (if any) in the preceding 58 years? The preceding 100 years? Historically? Perhaps 20th Century technology and medicines had something to do with the population growth? Perhaps changes in pre- and post-natal care? Perhaps changes in hygiene? Perhaps more inter-marriages increasing the number of couples of child-bearing age? What resources have the Brazilian and Guyanan authorities put into supporting the Wai wai? Give us a clue as to what underlay this apparent increase in population. How does any of this relate in any way to your mythical 8 Flud survivors who had none of the above? Why not post a model based on these figures for Ancient Egypt:

Child mortality to age 5 = c. 45%
Av life expectancy at birth = 20-30 years
Av age at death (adults) = 30-40 years (25-35 for women)
Pop growth rate = 0.1%