Not_Registered

I initially posted this thread in the General Religious Discussions Forum, but I was advised to post it here...so I am.

In many, probably all, of the religious debates I've been in, people always through in, "well that's assuming Jesus ever even existed." I haven't had a great deal of time to get as in-depth as I would like into researching this issue. But, just out of curiousity, I was wondering what people's reasons for believing and not believing Jesus' existed are. In other words, if you believe Jesus existed, then why? If you don't believe Jesus existed, then why? It would be great to see some replies both for and against the existence of Jesus.

P.S. -- And I'm talkin about reasons with substance. Not "because someone told me" or "because I've never seen him". Also, this is about Jesus' existence...NOT God's.

Sven

Just to clarify - are you talking about the existence of Jesus (that is, a Jewish preacher around 2000 years ago) or about the existence of Jesus Christ (that is at least a saviour figure, who died and was resurrected).

I think very few doubt the existence of the former. Only including some supernatural events leads to doubting his existence.

Rhaedas

It may be more than a few. I think the likelihood of Jesus being a living person is about the same as him being a literary device. Doesn't discount the possibility, but his existence didn't leave much evidence to go on.

Sven

Depends. If you restrict it to the definition I gave ("a Jewish preacher around 2000 years ago") his existence is very likely. There've been many preachers, and as far as I know, Yeshua (sp?) was a common name.

Not_Registered

I am referring to Jesus, the man. Whether one believes him to be Jesus Christ is another issue. I am referring to Jesus, the preacher, who the bible refers to (i.e. not some commoner Jesus just happend to live 2000 years ago, but has no relation to the "preacher" Jesus).



Well, in my experience, that has not been the case. In many of my religious arguments several people have stated that Jesus probably never even existed in the first place. Sven, if you believe there is little dispute to Jesus' existence please list why. And others please give your reasons for believing or not believing in the existence of a historical Jesus.

Magdlyn

Have you read Earl Doherty's site?

http://pages.ca.inter.net/~oblio/home.htm

Or the new book by Price The Incredible Shrinking Son of Man, also reviewed on Doherty's site?

This is huge subject, far too much info to cover in one thread. Doherty also recs these books:

Who Wrote the New Testament? (Burton Mack)
Honest to Jesus (Robert Funk)
Liberating the Gospels (John Shelby Spong)
Paul: The Mind of the Apostle (A. N. Wilson)
The Birth of Christianity (John Dominic Crossan)
The Case for Christ (Lee Strobel)
The Jesus Mysteries: (Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy)
Published in England, 1999
The Christ Conspiracy: (Acharya S)
Published in USA, 1999
Jesus—One Hundred Years Before Christ: (Alvar Ellegard)
Published in England, 1999
With response by the author and reply by Earl Doherty
Deconstructing Jesus (Robert M. Price)
Published in USA, 2000
The Jesus the Jews Never Knew: (Frank R. Zindler)
Published in USA, 2003

Not_Registered

Magdlyn, I'm just wondering...do you believe that Jesus existed? And, I will (over the next week) look at Earl Doherty's site, but just as a backdrop, is the site for or against the existence of a historical Jesus?

Sven

That really depends on the definition of "Jesus". When someone stated in an argument that "Jesus probably never even existed in the first place", did you always ask which "kind" of Jesus he had in mind?

Your definition above is still not clear. First, you write "Jesus, the man [...] the preacher" but then continue with "who the bible refers to". So, do you include the supernatural events attributed to Jesus in the bible in your definition, or don't you include them?

Some reasons to doubt his existence (I'm no expert and actually lean to the interpretation that there was indeed a preacher around whom the myths were built):
* few mention of Jesus outside the bible - especially the supernatural parts
* no documents written by himself
* contradictions in the accounts of his life

Not_Registered

Sven, when I said the Jesus the bible refers to I mean the "preacher" Jesus. I appologize for being vague. For example, if 200 years from now someone said can you prove that George Bush, the president, existed and someone gives a picture of a man named George Bush, but this guy lived in Oregon and was and African American this would obviously not count toward proving the existence of George Bush, the president. So when I said the Jesus the bible refers to I mean the "preacher" Jesus. Once again, I appologize for being unclear. But, I mean THE Jesus. Not some guy named Jesus that owned a concession stand (even though they probably didn't have those back then, but hopefully you get my drift). To clarify again, I am not talking about the supernatural works. I am talking about Jesus, the man, ever existing. Whether you think the guy was raised from the dead or did any supernatural acts is not the issue. I am asking if you believe Jesus (regardless of divinity) existed or not and why you believe so.

Magdlyn

Well, thanks for asking! Not that it matters, but my answer is no. Many prophets existed back then. Some of them may have been named Jesus (or Yeshua). Wandering ascetic street preachers existed back then amongst Jews, Greeks (Cynics) and in India.

Does Christ exist, as in Paul and the sacred Gnostic literature? Yes, if that theology speaks to you.

If Christ, as an archetype of the ideal human, as Buddha nature, is something you are seeking, you will find him. My viewpoint on this is influenced by mythologist Campbell and psychologist Jung.

Read The Gospel of Thomas.

If you look at the first page, you will see.

Here is an even easier place to start (color, pictures and humor, ie: a spoonful of sugar to help the medicine go down):

the Pagan Origins of the Christ Myth:

http://home.earthlink.net/~pgwhacker/ChristianOrigins/