motorhead

Split from I am an Orthodox Freethinker

I don't think the issue is whether Jesus was a historical person or not. I have no problem believing that the historical evidence (though scant) does point strongly to the existence of an actual man named Jesus on whom the NT Gospels are based. Doesn't mean I consider all the stories in the Gospels as true (that's another issue entirely). I'm only saying I believe Jesus was an actual historical person. I think there are even non-Christian historians who have concluded that Jesus was an actual historical person.

If the apostles (meaning the close followers of Jesus who followed him when he was alive) died for their beliefs about Jesus, and from what I remember this has never been proven historically, this would only mean they died being wrong. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt that none of them were lying. They were simply wrong.

But again, I don't think it's been proven historically that these close followers died for their beliefs about Jesus. The martydom stories are simply that, stories, legends that developed in the church long after these close followers had died.

Not-For-Prophet

I've wondered this myself sometimes. Please note that this is entirely speculation on my part, but I wonder how many of them just made the same type of utter, complete, annoying, pestilential, unreasonable pains in the asses of themselves that some christians still do today. Not being protected by the civil and human rights that they are now, ironically, trying to destroy in my country, pfffftttt, they are offed. Which made them no more of a martyr than anyone else who got the axe at that particular time and place.

TomboyMom

Oh really? There is not a single document or piece of physical evidence that was written or created during Jesus's alleged lifetime or soon after that verifies his existence or even mentions him. If you believe that there is one, name it.

We've been through this before. This is what I mean when I say that you take refuge by repeating the same discredited arguments, and ignoring the fact that they have been refuted. Once again, assuming that they were martyred, which we do not, they may have been mistaken. They may have believed something which is false. This is a frequent occurrence. Therefore, if there were Christian martyrs, another questionable "fact," it proves nothing about the existence or divinity of Christ. I'll put it another way, in an effort to be heard above your loud humming. I concede that people would not die for something they knew to be false. This does not however prove that they did for something which was in fact true.

Please distinguish between the alleged Christian martyrs and suicide bombers or Jim Jones followers. If you cannot do this, please stop repeating this argument as well; it is tedious.

Decided yet whether the Jews were justified in following God's commandments to kill their neighbor's babies? People wouldn't kill for something they knew to be false now, would they?

Orthodox_Freethinker

The Apostles were in the unique position to know for a fact whether or not Jesus physically rose from the dead. It pushes the limits of credulity that religious Jews in first-century Palestine would willingly die for worshipping a dead corpse.

Orthodox_Freethinker

See, this only shows that you still don't get the argument. The followers of Jim Jones did not know for certain that their leader was wrong. However, the Apostles, had Jesus not physically risen from the dead, would know for a fact that he was not their God and would not have worshipped a corpse.
Jesus promised that he would physically rise in fulfillment of the Scriptures. If he did not, he would be a false prophet and none of the prophets would have knowingly died for his lies.

TomboyMom

Oh really, in what way? Was any author of any new testament book present at the curcifiction? Aren't your statements pure hearsay, even according to the new testament? Do you have any non-biblical source to confirm anything you are saying, such as that apostles existed, were martyred, or were in the unique position to know for a fact etc? Weren't the followers of Jim Jones and David Kouresh in at least as good a position, since they were around their chosen objects of veneration while they were still alive?

Not-For-Prophet

Ahem....Jonestown.......Heaven's Gate......

Before you say stuff like this, you might want to think, or even do a basic google search. People die for all KINDS of false religious nonsense.

Selsaral

You completey missed my point.

You said the fact that people died for their belief indicated their belief was true. I pointed out examples of people (and there are many more) dying for beliefs that are absurd and obviously wrong. This counters your intial statement.

Does it push the limit of credulity that a bunch of people living in the 21st century would castrate themselves and commit suicide so that the aliens hiding behind a comet would whisk them away to heaven (the Heaven's Gate cult). Not to me, this is how people are: superstitious and gullible and desperate to believe in something that makes them feel better. You're acting like human beings are normally logical and only rationally evaluate evidence and never create myths and are never wrong about anything. The history of the human race shows us the exact opposite is true.

There didn't need to be a historical jesus for christianity to arise. (There could have been, but there didn't need to be). Just like there didn't need to be a historical Achilles for stories to appear about him. Just like there didn't need to be a historical Moses for stories to appear about him. People are myth-making, storytelling, superstitious, gullible, indoctrinated creatures.

emphryio

There were at least 19 self proclaimed messiahs during the time period. Jesus is one of the least likely to have actually existed.

Selsaral

In the exact same way if Achilles had had his entire body dipped in the river Styx, instead of everything but his foot, he wouldn't have died at Troy.

It's a story, man.