Freethought & Rationalism Archive

stephan huller · 05-09-2013, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Quran IV:171, "Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word."

William Hume (nascas Google group) notes that:

Quote:

The text could read "messenger of Allah and [of] His word," but local Muslims here in Los Angeles point out that their particular text's "reading" is kalimatuhu, and not kalimatihi. They have a point that there is an Arian-incarnationalist reading that is possible here.

In order for my "[of] His word" reading to work, would require some text-criticism in Quran, or maybe just a peek into Samarqandi's book of "Readings". One scholar has said that I cannot make a "complex idafa". Thus, we are stuck with a sura that makes Jesus the "Word of Allah". Gee. Sounds Arian. And not an "extrapolation" from "biblical references" at all. I really, really, wanted a non-incarnational-christology Quran.

stephan huller · 05-09-2013, 11:12 AM

The comments took place as part of a discussion of Griffith's new ebook 'the Bible in Arabic'

http://books.google.com/books?id=ovk...page&q&f=false

Jeffrey Gibson · 05-09-2013, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Quote:

Quran IV:171, "Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word."

William Hume (nascas Google group) notes that:

Quote:

The text could read "messenger of Allah and [of] His word," but local Muslims here in Los Angeles point out that their particular text's "reading" is kalimatuhu, and not kalimatihi. They have a point that there is an Arian-incarnationalist reading that is possible here.

In order for my "[of] His word" reading to work, would require some text-criticism in Quran, or maybe just a peek into Samarqandi's book of "Readings". One scholar has said that I cannot make a "complex idafa". Thus, we are stuck with a sura that makes Jesus the "Word of Allah". Gee. Sounds Arian. And not an "extrapolation" from "biblical references" at all. I really, really, wanted a non-incarnational-christology Quran.

Sorry, but you are showing yourself entirely ignorant on matters Arian (where Jesus is the incarnated Word of God, not just a messenger of it) and Islam. You may wish to note that all those whom the Quran notes to have been in the line of the messenger prophets ( رسول‎ rasūl -- i.e. , David, Moses, Abraham, Jonah, etc. -- and not just Jesus, are considered to be but a messenger of Allah and his Word.

Jeffrey

stephan huller · 05-09-2013, 11:22 AM

I am citing what someone else said. The title was established to debate this very point. I agree Hume is incorrect in his usage. I am interested in discussing this very surah to see what basis there is for Hume's views. Hume's point is clearly that in this particular verse the Quran identifies Jesus as 'the Word of God' going beyond your cited textbook explanation. Here, according to Hume, Jesus is both 'messenger' and 'word' of Allah.

Jeffrey Gibson · 05-09-2013, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

I am citing what someone else said. The title was established to debate this very point. I agree Hume is incorrect in his usage. I am interested in discussing this very surah to see what basis there is for Hume's views. Hume's point is clearly that in this particular verse the Quran identifies Jesus as 'the Word of God' going beyond your cited textbook explanation. Here, according to Hume, Jesus is both 'messenger' and 'word' of Allah.

Even so, Jesus as the word of God is hardly Arian. The orthodox asserted it too, following Justin and others, not to mention the author of GJohn.

And you can stop with the snide "textbook explanation" remark unless you want to call the Quran itself a textbook.

JG

Duvduv · 05-09-2013, 11:44 AM

There is a distinction between a rasullah, and a nabi.
For example, Samuel is called Nabi Samwil. A Rasullah introduces a new teaching for mankind, whereas a nabi simply reinforces the existing message or teaching. Joseph was a nabi, as was Jacob, but Abraham and David were rasullah. Although Abraham was also habibullah - Friend of God.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

William Hume (nascas Google group) notes that:

Sorry, but you are showing yourself entirely ignorant on matters Arian (where Jesus is the incarnated Word of God, not just a messenger of it) and Islam. You may wish to note that all those whom the Quran notes to have been in the line of the messenger prophets ( رسول‎ rasūl -- i.e. , David, Moses, Abraham, Jonah, etc. -- and not just Jesus, are considered to be but a messenger of Allah and his Word.

Jeffrey

stephan huller · 05-09-2013, 12:03 PM

evangelist (= Arabic mubashshir = Hebrew mevasser).

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05-09-2013, 11:12 AM	#2
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	The comments took place as part of a discussion of Griffith's new ebook 'the Bible in Arabic' http://books.google.com/books?id=ovk...page&q&f=false

05-09-2013, 11:22 AM	#4
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	I am citing what someone else said. The title was established to debate this very point. I agree Hume is incorrect in his usage. I am interested in discussing this very surah to see what basis there is for Hume's views. Hume's point is clearly that in this particular verse the Quran identifies Jesus as 'the Word of God' going beyond your cited textbook explanation. Here, according to Hume, Jesus is both 'messenger' and 'word' of Allah.

05-09-2013, 12:03 PM	#7
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	evangelist (= Arabic mubashshir = Hebrew mevasser).

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