joedad

Is there a Jesus in Baghdad today? Admittedly, this is a person which we presently hear little if anything of, but who in another 60 to 100 years, will be on his way to becoming a pivotal historical figure.

This is not a mocking post, BTW. I am a Jesus Myther, and used to spend much time in BCH. I still enjoy doing so though my contributions have dwindled to zilch. And this is certainly a spur of the moment OP, so I hope the mods are in a kindly mood today. :wave:

But my thoughts are primarily directed at HJers who believe that behind the gospel accounts, canonical and not, there exists an historical figure. I pose the question because in my humble opinion the present conditions in Baghdad are very similar to conditions in ancient Jerusalem.

That’s about it. Any takers?

Chris Weimer

Can you first write about the similarities between ancient Jerusalem and Baghdad? Preferably get it published in some academic journal, if you have the chance. Make sure you show how Baghdad is dominantly Jewish, like Jerusalem was.

joedad

Occupied by a superpower.
Highly religious.
Divided along sectarian lines.
Ongoing violence and resistance.
Enemies at the borders.

Maybe there is another city or situation you have in mind that fits the historical setting of the gospels. If so feel free to use it. I used Baghdad.

gstafleu

I agree there are similariries between the situation in Jerusalem in the 1st century, and the one in Baghdad now. Similarities, mind you, not an identical situation. What I'm not clear about is why that would lead anyone to expect a JC equivalent, especially since the MJ position is that there was no JC in Jerusalem either.

Gerard Stafleu

Chris Weimer

Different scenarios, different levels of "occupation". While Iraq may be occupied by America, Jerusalem was conquered by it. Jerusalem was a part of the Roman empire, while no such thing exists in Iraq.

Years of Saddam's secularism curbed that in large parts of the country. It's the minority Shia who really cause the problems.

Read up on what really went down during the Jewish War. Start with Josephus, then try someone like Sanders.

Isn't that in plenty of places? That's a pretty shoddy "parallel".

Who?

Actually, I don't think any city fits Jerusalem. For one, every one now is about, oh, say, 2000 years too late.

Alf

That depends on your point of view. I do not agree to this description but there are those that think that US has conquered Iraq and have placed a quisling goverment there to rule as a puppet goverment for US in their place. However, many of the people that do agree to such a description are exactly those people who go and drive ambulances with explosives to police stations and so on.

The struggle there has many dimensions. It is also a plain simple struggle of power. They want to take this opportunity to take power over Iraq and turn it into an islamic state like Iran.

Well, not sure. You might say that people are not as supsertitious as they were back then. If someone showed a con trick back then people screamed miracle, today they would see it for what it is - a con trick. You might say that, until you see in a news report that someone has seen a statue shedding tears or blood or some such and then you know that superstition is thriving in various places around the world still.

However, some things HAVE changed. We have a scientific community who can call the bullshit today, no such thing was in place back then. Unfortunately, many people do not listen to the scientific community - especially fundies and the like and also new agers. Perhaps the only thing those two groups can agree on

Alf

Roger Pearse

The Chaldaean patriarchate was bombed by the terrorists, resulting in the (probable) destruction of manuscript A of the "Explanations of the feasts of the economy". It had been taken there for safe-keeping.

A is or was the only copy of manuscript S, from Seert. This was destroyed in 1915 when the Chaldaean patriarchate at Seert was destroyed by the Turks and the scholar-bishop Addai Scher was martyred. The manuscript had been taken there for safe-keeping.

Now all that remains is 20th century copies of A, and possibly a poor-quality microfilm of A made in the 60's (which I am trying to locate).

All the best,

Roger Pearse

joedad

Perhaps I’m not being clear.

Essentially, I don’t see anything particularly distinguishing about the historical setting of the gospels. So I’m seeking an understanding of the mindset of an HJer by looking for a contemporary parallel. Or maybe there is a familiar historical parallel that makes an HJer’s position less than unique.

It’s not a mater of Jewishness or Imperialism. If an HJer is stating that the Gospel protagonist is ultimately historical, what other historical examples of just such an occurrence do we have?

All literary figures, human and not, and no matter how sensationalized, are ultimately based on a writer’s experiences. That said, however, none would argue for the historicity of Pegasus or Frodo Baggins.

So there is obviously a methodology in the HJer’s position that I’m missing. I was hoping that someone could point to a contemporary gospel-like situation where a similar protagonist is certainly not fictional.

Chris Weimer

What about Simon Bar Kosiba? Is that parallel enough? Or what of the various Roman revolutionaries: is Julius Caesar fiction as well? Was Marius consul?

Ever heard of a boy who rode on dolphins?

joedad

Gospel Jesus wasn’t a military figure. If GJ is based on a military figure, then GJ is fictional. Don’t you agree? People also ride Killer Whales and grab onto the dorsal fins of Great Whites for a joy ride. A boy riding a dolphin is nothing spectacular.

Try this thought experiment:

Today, about the same amount of time has passed since the Holocaust, as had passed from when Jesus supposedly existed to when the first accounts were written of his gospel undertakings. Let’s just call this about half a century. Now let’s crank ahead a few centuries or even a couple millennia.

Now in that future we discover accounts about a Jewish person who lived at the time of Nazi Germany and who traveled throughout Germany preaching the Good News of Judaism, all while the Nazis were in power, and who ultimately entered Berlin to cheering throngs, and who was then later executed as an enemy of the state along with many other Holocaust victims. Would you find such an account of just such a person believable? Personally I would not.

Further, if I took some figure from later history insisting that this figure was the inspiration, I would at least be committing an anachronism. The fictional protagonist would still be fictional. Phileas Fogg isn't Ferdinand Magellan.

Getting back to Baghdad, perhaps a Muqtada al Sadr is a good example of a person that morphs into a fictional Jesus of the Gospels. The inspiratiohn is genuine, but the writer's protagonist bears no resemblence to this person and is therefore fictional.