Evolutionist

ok, i've got a question for you biblical scholars out there.

my bible (KJV) says "thou shalt not kill".

however, i'm constantly hearing people call it "thou shalt not murder".

as killing and murder are different things, i'd be interested to know what the original was. it seems as though the murder translation is a new one (my bible was published 23 years ago), but is it an accurate correction, or an apologetic one?

Heathen Dawn

The original Hebrew says

לא תרצח
lo tirsah

which means "thou shalt not murder".

If it had meant "thou shalt not kill", it would be

לא תהרג
lo taharog

The KJV, as is apparent from many other passages, is just a sloppy translation. "Thou shalt not murder" is correct.

Doctor X

Actually, it is:

. . . to create a vacancy without naming a successor.

--Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

--J.D.

Evolutionist

this is interesting, because many of the older bible i've seen say "kill", and i've seen many christians coredcted by atheists, and indeed other christians that its kill, not murder...

is murder defined in the bible? because murder by itself is just an unjustified killing, and what is and isn't justified changes from place to place, making the law moot unless it's defined.

fried beef sandwich

My prof explained it to me that it was more like "Murder not" (imperative form) in the original hebrew.

Heathen Dawn

No, it's not. The verb-form tirsah is a second person singular, in the imperfective aspect, which is used for either present or future. "You will not murder" is the most exact translation to modern English.

Heathen Dawn

Jews, as Hebrew speakers, have always known that it means "murder" and not "kill". I have provided the alternative verb that would mean "kill".

Peter Kirby

The Bible gives a rather specific definition of things that constitute murder.

Numbers 35
16 And if he have smitten him with an instrument of iron, so that he die, he is a murderer: the murderer shall certainly be put to death.
17 And if he have smitten him with a stone from the hand, wherewith one may die, and he die, he is a murderer: the murderer shall certainly be put to death.
18 Or if he have smitten him with an instrument of wood, in the hand, wherewith one may die, and he die, he is a murderer: the murderer shall certainly be put to death;
19 the avenger of blood, he shall put the murderer to death; when he meeteth him, he shall put him to death.
20 And if he thrust at him out of hatred, or hurl at him intentionally, so that he die,
21 or from enmity smite him with his hand, so that he die, he that smote him shall certainly be put to death; he is a murderer: the avenger of blood shall put the murderer to death, when he meeteth him. --
22 But if he have thrust at him suddenly without enmity, or have cast upon him anything unintentionally,
23 or [have smitten him] with any stone wherewith one may die, without seeing him, and have cast it upon him so that he die, and he was not his enemy, neither sought his harm:
24 then the assembly shall judge between the smiter and the avenger of blood according to these judgments;
25 and the assembly shall rescue the manslayer out of the hand of the avenger of blood, and the assembly shall restore him to the city of his refuge, whither he had fled; and he shall abide in it until the death of the high-priest, who was anointed with the holy oil.
26 But if the manslayer shall in any way come outside the limits of the city of his refuge whither he hath fled,
27 and the avenger of blood find him outside the limits of his city of refuge, and the avenger of blood kill the manslayer, there shall be no blood-guiltiness upon him;
28 for the manslayer should have remained in the city of his refuge until the death of the high-priest; but after the death of the high-priest he may return into the land of his possession.
29 And this shall be unto you a statute of right throughout your generations in all your dwellings.

best,
Peter Kirby

Grumpy

When it comes to the King James version, "murder" is not a word used very often; typically, it is rendered as "slay." But the Hebrew word most often translated as "murder" is Harag. Interestingly, the same verb is used in such passages as Exodus 32:27.

So, as far as KJV is concerned, Moses here is relaying God's order to murder.

The word KJV renders as "kill" in Exodus 20:13 ("Thou shalt not kill") is Ratsach. Again, KJV prefers "slay" to "murder," and "kill" is relatively rare. (Wonder what the KJV translators were thinking. Hmm.)

So which word means "unlawful homicide"? Hard to tell. Ratsach is also used in Proverbs 22:13, "The slothful man saith, There is a lion without, I shall be slain in the streets." How can a lion commit murder?

Now, the strict definition given in Numbers 35 uses the commandment's term, Ratsach, as "murderer." The "avenger of blood," on the other hand, is allowed to Muwth, or slay, with impunity. Except in all the cases where the avenger also shall be punished.

Aerik Von

To murder. It is fine to kill for various reasons as laid out within the Tahlmudic Laws. Like cheating on your wife, drinking the blood of a sacrifice or being gay...or practicing mysticism - like Jesus with raising the dead. (Necromancy and miracle work is supposedly possible through the Kabbala but is strictly forbidden of course.)