Clivedurdle

Reading something interesting and would welcome comments. As there is a serious danger of the message being shot because of the messenger I am not yet referencing it!

The return from exile very likely did not happen.

Prior to the coming of Alexander, the population of Judea was only about thirty thousand. Jerusalem was only the obscure abode of an insignificant tribe. Josephus was unable to find references to Jews in Greek literature before Alexander.

It was only with the successor to Alexander (he never went there despite what Jewish tales say) - Ptolemy - that Jerusalem became a city - a Greek City! There was also an explosion of Jewish literature - this is the first time there was a structure able to produce literature! The Jews had finally arrived on the world stage - but because of Greek education! Almost all Jewish literature is written in Greek!

From about 220BCE a Jewish Fantasy factory is recognisable. It was claimed that Pythagorus learnt everything from the Jews, Plato borrowed his ideas from Moses, the alphabet was invented by Moses - he also taught Orpheus about building ships, weapons, stone construction and philosophy. Moses taught heiroglyphics to the Egyptians and was named Hermes!

Alexander was shown Daniel - quite impressive as it was written a century and a half after he died and is a classic example of prophecy after the event - actually written for the audience of its time.

To conclude, the Hasmoneans created the Tanakh to create a history for themselves.

It may be as late as the first century BCE!

The Tanakh in fact gives us its date of writing! Ussher worked it out!

It is 164 BCE - the Greek Great Year, and the year of the rededication of the Temple!

bacht

Hoo boy, you really want to rile up the traditionalists don't you?

I thought that some of the material found at Qumran was datable to the 3rd C BCE?

Before the Greeks, weren't there some references to the Jews by Assyrians, Babylonians and Persians, or other neighbours? Admittedly this doesn't address your point directly, but might confirm events described in the OT texts.

Are there any ancient fragments of the Tanakh that have been found? That might at least demonstrate Hebrew/Aramaic literacy before Hellenistic times.

Would the Mishnah or Talmuds shed any light on pre-Greek writings? The traditions about Ezra as archetypal scribe seem strong.

Clivedurdle

I am not saying that bits are not older - whole chunks are alterations of the surrounding empires' myths, but that the Hasmoneans published it as we know it and wrote huge chunks!

Esther and Mordecai or is it Ishtar and Marduk?

semiopen

There are some parts of the Tanakh that are very old. These include the Song of the Sea, the Song of Deborah, and the priestly blessing. These may date to 1200 BCE but maybe 1000 is more realistic.

You've got to figure a good bit was written around Josiah reign before the first exile, say 700 BCE.

I've got an open mind, but agree Ezra was also important. Esther is obviously written after the exile. I think the books of Moses and much of the Deuteronimic Histories (Joshua, Judges, Samuel, Kings) was done before the first exile.

The Hasmoneans probably weren't involved, why the constant priestly stuff when they weren't Aaronid?

Makes more sense than saying God did it (or divinely inspired guys) though.

Analyst

IIRC, I heard that to this day you can buy comic books in Japan in which the USA is shown as the initial aggressor in WWII - and in which Japan won the war!

Clivedurdle

You have for possibly a very interesting reason a complete misunderstanding of the Hasmoneans. They were the heavy priestly lot.

The Pharisees have been labelled as this - they are in the section below - but in reality the Pharisees actually were interested in the spirit - not the letter - of the law.

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/...#ref=ref478846

Reading this Britannicca article there are continuous allusions to the Jewish people being more important than they were. David and Solomon are taken at face value although the Bible myths are the equivalent of the Japanese comics mentioned above.

bacht

Right, the book of Kings talks about good king Hezekiah (late 8th C) and good king Josiah (late 7th C) as being religious reformers, and of course there's the story about Josiah's priests "finding" scrolls in the temple. One would think that at the very least some form of law code had been in use, maybe following the Mosaic Torah, maybe not.

I think it's also been assumed that some material was written or edited in Babylon eg. Ezekiel.

I thought maybe Clive was backing into the theory that the Septuagint was the first written Jewish scripture, which came up here not too long ago.

The LXX did include intertestamental books like Judith, Tobit etc. some of which seem to have a Hellenistic flavour. Jesus ben Sirach claims to be a Greek translation of a Hebrew original, maybe an allusion to the roughly contemporary work of the Alexandrian translators. He also claims to be addressing "outsiders" and diaspora Jews, maybe reflecting growing literacy and interest in the scriptures among Greek-speakers (?)

It seems true that the Greek LXX and the Antiochean crisis in Palestine were both creative spurs, inspiring new books and revisions of existing ones. But the OP suggests that nothing had been written down before this in Hebrew or Aramaic. It's an interesting thought experiment.

bacht

Yes, the Maccabees started well, but by the time of Alexander Jannaeus they had morphed into petty tyrants, usurping the high priesthood and allowing Hellenism to gain ground in Palestine.

Clivedurdle

Eh?

It is the other way round!

The Hasmoneans wanted to return to a pure priestly Judaism and throw out the pagan Greeks!

bacht

"As to Alexander, his own people were seditious against him; for at a festival which was then celebrated, when he stood upon the altar, and was going to sacrifice, the nation rose upon him, and pelted him with citrons [which they then had in their hands, because] the law of the Jews required that at the feast of tabernacles every one should have branches of the palm tree and citron tree; which thing we have elsewhere related. They also reviled him, as derived from a captive, and so unworthy of his dignity and of sacrificing. At this he was in a rage, and slew of them about six thousand. He also built a partition-wall of wood round the altar and the temple, as far as that partition within which it was only lawful for the priests to enter; and by this means he obstructed the multitude from coming at him."

Ant XIII 13.5