Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Malachi151 · 10-18-2006, 02:33 PM

The funny thing about the claims by Christians that Jesus fulfilled all these prophecies, is that when you look into it, virtually none of the claimed prophecies were even prophecies in the first place.

I never realized it before, but the CLAIM of prophecies is really just a way to explain away the fact that the story of Jesus is crafted from "Old Testament" texts.

If these weren't "prophecies", then its obvious that the wrtiers of the gospels were just using the Septuigent as source material, and that the story is crafted from stringing old passages together.

But when you look at the old passages, most of them are actually from Psalms, and thus definately are not prophecies, and most of the rest and just parts of stories with no indication that they were prophecies.

Take for example the mian so-called prophecy fulfilled by Jesus:

Isaiah 52-53:

Quote:

52:

13 See, my servant will act wisely
he will be raised and lifted up and highly exalted.

14 Just as there were many who were appalled at him [In the Hebrew text YOU]
his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any man
and his form marred beyond human likeness—

15 so will he sprinkle many nations,
and kings will shut their mouths because of him.
For what they were not told, they will see,
and what they have not heard, they will understand.

53:

1 Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?

2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.

3 He was despised and rejected by men,
a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering.
Like one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he took up our infirmities
and carried our sorrows,
yet we considered him stricken by God,
smitten by him, and afflicted.

5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.

6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before her shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.

8 By oppression [a] and judgment he was taken away.
And who can speak of his descendants?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was stricken. [b]

9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the LORD makes [c] his life a guilt offering,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.

11 After the suffering of his soul,
he will see the light of life [d] and be satisfied [e] ;
by his knowledge [f] my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, [g]
and he will divide the spoils with the strong, [h]
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.

This isn't even a prophesy, its Isaiah going off about his own personal righteous servant, and most of it is in the past tense.

Psalm 22 is the same way, they claim now that it was a prophesy, but nothing about it indicated that it was a prophesy, is was just a lamentation song, etc.

dzim77 · 10-18-2006, 02:53 PM

Quote:

This isn't even a prophesy, its Isaiah going off about his own personal righteous servant, and most of it is in the past tense.

His own personal servant, eh? I think that's a new one.

According to this view... How would his servant 'justify many' and 'bear their iniquities'? Did the LORD lay the iniquity of us all on Isaiah's personal servant?

Malachi151 · 10-18-2006, 03:33 PM

Well, maybe not, but I can't make sense of it at any rate. It doesn't say anything about being a prophecy, and certianly most of the others don't either, especially the Psalms.

Coleslaw · 10-18-2006, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

Well, maybe not, but I can't make sense of it at any rate. It doesn't say anything about being a prophecy, and certianly most of the others don't either, especially the Psalms.

The "Suffering Servant" has been discussed extensively at:
http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/phpBB2...pic.php?t=1910

and you might find the discussion interesting.

The link I gave will no longer function after Jan 1, 2007, but the subject is also discussed at messiahtruth.org:
http://www.messiahtruth.com/isa53intro.html

http://www.messiahtruth.com/isaiah53a.html (6 page series, see the links at the bottom of the page to continue)

http://www.messiahtruth.com/targum.html

http://www.messiahtruth.com/zohar.html

Her pinkness saves · 10-18-2006, 04:45 PM

i actually had an audio mp3 of a rabbi going over the messiah prophecies and critiquing jesus's supposed fulfillment.

big shocker, apparently to jews, changing the rules of the game to suit your needs doesn't count as a fulfillment. wow, eh?

Malachi151 · 10-18-2006, 05:08 PM

First of all, I have no argument at all oer "whether prophecies were fulfilled", that's a completely asanine argument. Obviously, the NT writers used the "OT" texts as source material for their fabricated story.

My issue is, that many of the things claimed by Christians be to "prophesy fulfillment", are not even decalred as prophecies in the first place.

The question is not "did Jesus fulfill the prophesy in Isaiah 53", the question is, "is Isaiah 53 even a prophesy"?

Daniel has some clearly declared prophecies, that are stated to be prophecies from the start. Most of what Christians call prophecies are just textual similarities between two documents.

aa5874 · 10-18-2006, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

First of all, I have no argument at all oer "whether prophecies were fulfilled", that's a completely asanine argument. Obviously, the NT writers used the "OT" texts as source material for their fabricated story.

My issue is, that many of the things claimed by Christians be to "prophesy fulfillment", are not even decalred as prophecies in the first place.

The question is not "did Jesus fulfill the prophesy in Isaiah 53", the question is, "is Isaiah 53 even a prophesy"?

There are so many questions. If the passages in Isaiah 53 are actually prophetic, how can it be demonstrated that it was Jesus who fulfilled those prophecies.

If we read Matthew 24:5, 'For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceieve many'..

How can it be determined whether or not the character called Jesus in Matthew is not a deceiver?

Look at this analogy, 'Many shall come in my name, saying I am aa5874, and shall deceieve many...

How can it be determined if someone stole aa5874's identity, if no-one can identify the real aa5874.

But I guess the Bible has a universal answer to all our questions, 'He that believeth not shall be damned'.

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10-18-2006, 03:33 PM	#3
Malachi151 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Colorado Posts: 8,674	Well, maybe not, but I can't make sense of it at any rate. It doesn't say anything about being a prophecy, and certianly most of the others don't either, especially the Psalms.

10-18-2006, 04:45 PM	#5
Her pinkness saves Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: canada Posts: 852	i actually had an audio mp3 of a rabbi going over the messiah prophecies and critiquing jesus's supposed fulfillment. big shocker, apparently to jews, changing the rules of the game to suit your needs doesn't count as a fulfillment. wow, eh?

10-18-2006, 05:08 PM	#6
Malachi151 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Colorado Posts: 8,674	First of all, I have no argument at all oer "whether prophecies were fulfilled", that's a completely asanine argument. Obviously, the NT writers used the "OT" texts as source material for their fabricated story. My issue is, that many of the things claimed by Christians be to "prophesy fulfillment", are not even decalred as prophecies in the first place. The question is not "did Jesus fulfill the prophesy in Isaiah 53", the question is, "is Isaiah 53 even a prophesy"? Daniel has some clearly declared prophecies, that are stated to be prophecies from the start. Most of what Christians call prophecies are just textual similarities between two documents.

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