yummyfur

Seutonius doesn't mention Jesus Christ, he mentions a Chrestus during Claudius's reign, who is somehow involved in the Jews getting expelled from Rome, and there is no good reason to connect him to Jesus or to Christians.

Seutonius in a later segment on Nero, mentions Christians as a general group with superstitous beliefs, so he seems to be aware of them and what they are, yet made no connection to this Chestus.

Mara Bar-Serapion does not mention Jesus Christ or even Jesus or Christ(which could be used for any messianic claimant, which were numerous during the first century CE). In a discussion on the deaths of Pythagoras and Socrates, she also mentions a wise Jewish King.

"What advantage did the Athenians gain from putting Socrates to death? Famine and plague came upon them as a judgment for their crime. What advantage did the men of Samos gain from burning Pythagoras? In a moment their land was covered with sand. What advantage did the Jews gain from executing their wise King? It was just after that their Kingdom was abolished. God justly avenged these three wise men: the Athenians died of hunger; the Samians were overwhelmed by the sea; the Jews, ruined and driven from their land, live in complete dispersion. But Socrates did not die for good; he lived on in the teaching of Plato. Pythagoras did not die for good; he lived on in the statue of Hera. Nor did the wise King die for good; He lived on in the teaching which He had given"

On the whole this passage is vague and somewhat error filled, this could be a reference to many personages. In fact I would be more inclined to say she is talking about King Julius Herod Agrippa I (who was also a Hasmonean, as well as Herod), who's death could have very possibly been caused by poison. I'm certain there were persons who suspected as much, it might also have been claimed he was assasinated by the Romans or a Jewish faction. He fits better, as he actually is a King of the Jews(the last one, before Judea is destroyed), and in some circles was considered wise, even godlike.

Toto

Have I missed something? Why do you refer to Mara Ben-Serapion as "she"?

TomboyMom

Moving down the list to Josephus, the only question the majority of scholars have about the "testimonium" is whether the references to Jesus' divinity are only interpolated into authentic text, or whether the entire thing is a forgery. Very few accept it as genuine. Including it on the list destroys the credibilty of the the entire list. As far as I can see so far Patriot7 is batting 0. Woefully ignorant my ass.

yummyfur

nope my mistake

funinspace

"Any more ignorant", what the… nah, it's ok
From the originating thread, here are some comments on the 17 list...
http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=165110&page=5
In another post on that thread, I added these comments in reference to the some of the 17, which provides P7's arguments no aid:
* In Antiquities of Josephus 93AD he says James the brother 'of Jesus, the so-called Christ'.
* Josephus, in a Slavonic translation suggests the emphasis was a political aim of the Jewish-Christian resurectionists in Judea.
* In Rome Tacitiaus, speaking of the Fires from the 60's in Annals called the Way "the detestable superstition of Christianity".
* Suetonous ref. 41-54 'they were constantly rioting at the instigation of Chrestus'
* Talmud liturgy from 85 'May the Nazarenes and the heretics be suddenly destroyed and removed from the book of life'
* The Letter of Mara Bar-Serapion is so vague, as to be meaningless.

funinspace

I would have preferred that the below was also included from my other comments that were swept up in this "discussion". Here I re-summarized the long running back and forth to P7:

cognac

Do the "search inside" thing. Look at table of contents and then enter search terms. You can get a lot of the book that way.

Toto

I think that you need an Amazon account where you have actually purchased a book before you can use that feature.

Kosh

TomboyMom,

I wouldn't my time with these. Everyone of these authors is late and just repeating what Xians have told them. As Toto alluded to , they've all been discussed and discounted here ad nauseum. I make P7 go read the previous threads, rather than letting laugh at you on a wild goose chase.

Ben C Smith

Since the topic is extrabiblical references to Jesus, this statement is misleading. Eusebius is not the only father who quotes Papias, nor even the only father who quotes Papias referring to Jesus. Irenaeus also does so, as well as Philip Sidetes and others. Furthermore, the very title of his known work (in five volumes) was Exegeses of the Sayings of the Lord, as several ancients attest.

I have the relevant texts laid out on my site.

Ben.