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Old 12-23-2006, 12:50 PM   #1
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Default Why Jesus zapped a fig tree

In a slightly mysterious passage Jesus zapped a fig tree for not having any fruit ready. E.g.:
Quote:
Mark 11
12 The next day as they were leaving Bethany, Jesus was hungry. 13 Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs. 14 Then he said to the tree, "May no one ever eat fruit from you again." And his disciples heard him say it.
A little while after that the troupe passes by the fig tree again and it has withered. The question now is: why would Jesus zap the poor tree. Mark even supplies that it was out of season for figs, so zapping seems a bit excessive.

Arthur Drews, in The Christ Myth establishes a link between the Messiah and trees in general and fig trees in specific. In Isaiah we have:
Quote:
Isaiah 11
1 A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse;
from his roots a Branch will bear fruit.
This shoot is the Messiah, or a close equivalent, who will go on to do good things, for example:
Quote:
4 but with righteousness he will judge the needy,
with justice he will give decisions for the poor of the earth.
He will strike the earth with the rod of his mouth;
with the breath of his lips he will slay the wicked.
5 Righteousness will be his belt
and faithfulness the sash around his waist.
So we have a link between Messiah and trees, or at least parts thereof, but what kind of tree? In good midrashic fashion we move on to Zechariah:
Quote:
Zechariah 3
1 Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right side to accuse him. 2 The LORD said to Satan, "The LORD rebuke you, Satan! The LORD, who has chosen Jerusalem, rebuke you! Is not this man a burning stick snatched from the fire?"
So Joshua is, again, a stick or branch, in this case snatched from the fire. A few verses down a link with the fig tree is established:
Quote:
6 The angel of the LORD gave this charge to Joshua: 7 "This is what the LORD Almighty says: 'If you will walk in my ways and keep my requirements, then you will govern my house and have charge of my courts, and I will give you a place among these standing here.

8 " 'Listen, O high priest Joshua and your associates seated before you, who are men symbolic of things to come: I am going to bring my servant, the Branch. 9 See, the stone I have set in front of Joshua! There are seven eyes on that one stone, and I will engrave an inscription on it,' says the LORD Almighty, 'and I will remove the sin of this land in a single day.

10 " 'In that day each of you will invite his neighbor to sit under his vine and fig tree,' declares the LORD Almighty."
I propose that a link between Messiahs and fig trees has here been established. The fig tree Jesus zaps bears no fruit. A Messiah who bears no fruit is pretty useless and can be seen as a false Messiah. I therefore suggest that what Jesus zaps in the form of the fig three is one or more false prophets. These could be spokesmen from factions competing with the Mark community, or they could be something more general like the Pharisees. It is not necessary to posit that it is the whole of Israel, as after all the Messiah is supposed to save Israel, not zap it.

This leaves the question of whence the bit about out of season. This could be a reference to people who speak for god, or pretend to do so, but whose time has passed, whose season is gone. A faction like the Pharisees again comes to mind.

Gerard Stafleu
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Old 12-23-2006, 07:47 PM   #3
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My pet theory on that story is that it means "Be ready for Jesus Christ -- or else!"

In any case, I found it shockingly immature when I first read it.
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Old 12-23-2006, 09:17 PM   #4
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Quote:
gstafleu: In a slightly mysterious passage Jesus zapped a fig tree for not having any fruit ready. E.g.:
Mark 11:12 The next day as they were leaving Bethany, Jesus was hungry. 13 Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs. 14 Then he said to the tree, "May no one ever eat fruit from you again." And his disciples heard him say it.
A little while after that the troupe passes by the fig tree again and it has withered. The question now is: why would Jesus zap the poor tree.
Actually, the question is, why didn't Jesus know it was out of season for figs and why would he "zap" the tree for being what it is? We'll return to this at the end.

Small correction, but I think in keeping with your metaphor.

Quote:
MORE: Mark even supplies that it was out of season for figs, so zapping seems a bit excessive.
And realistically unfounded.

Quote:
MORE: Arthur Drews, in The Christ Myth establishes a link between the Messiah and trees in general and fig trees in specific.
In specific? You mean, in reality, or in metaphor?

Quote:
MORE: In Isaiah we have: Isaiah 11:1 A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse; from his roots a Branch will bear fruit.

So we have a link between Messiah and trees, or at least parts thereof
A "link?" Need I remind you of what you just wrote? "When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs." Isaiah specifically states that the roots will bear fruit, but Jesus finds "nothing but leaves." Aka, no fruit. He's supposed to be the fruit, yes? So why does he curse the fig tree and why wasn't there any fruit?

If this is a metaphor for Jesus, then the "miracle" would be that there was fruit out of season.



Would that be a more apt metaphor?

Quote:
MORE: This shoot is the Messiah
No, the fruit would be the Messiah according to Isaiah; not the "shoot." Isaiah is saying that the shoot will bear the fruit; the fruit being the Messiah (or, rather, a Messiah, as there were several); the "'shoot" being the preparation for Jehovah's arrival on Earth.

You're talking about Jewish messianic tradition/prophesy; not Christian revision.

Quote:
MORE: or a close equivalent, who will go on to do good things, for example:
4 but with righteousness he will judge the needy, with justice he will give decisions for the poor of the earth. He will strike the earth with the rod of his mouth; with the breath of his lips he will slay the wicked. 5 Righteousness will be his belt and faithfulness the sash around his waist.
So we have a link between Messiah and trees,
What? Are you having us on? Where in any of that does it link "messiah" and "trees" that are cursed for bearing no fruit out of season?

Quote:
MORE: or at least parts thereof, but what kind of tree? In good midrashic fashion we move on to Zechariah:
Which is another way of saying, "we shall now cherry pick."

Quote:
Zechariah 3:1 Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right side to accuse him. 2 The LORD said to Satan, "The LORD rebuke you, Satan! The LORD, who has chosen Jerusalem, rebuke you! Is not this man a burning stick snatched from the fire?"

So Joshua is, again, a stick or branch, in this case snatched from the fire.
So, now a stick or branch "snatched from the fire" is to be cursed for bearing no fruit? It seems excessive...

Quote:
MORE: A few verses down a link with the fig tree is established: The angel of the LORD gave this charge to Joshua: 7 "This is what the LORD Almighty says: 'If you will walk in my ways and keep my requirements, then you will govern my house and have charge of my courts, and I will give you a place among these standing here.
So, Joshua is not Jesus, as Jesus was God and therefore it would make no sense to admonish Joshua to "walk in my ways and keep my requirements" in order to "govern" God's house. Nor would there be a "place among these standing here" that God (who is Jesus) would "give."

You are obviously no longer talking about Jesus here, unless God is an amnesiac.

Quote:
MORE: 8 " 'Listen, O high priest Joshua and your associates seated before you, who are men symbolic of things to come: I am going to bring my servant, the Branch. 9 See, the stone I have set in front of Joshua! There are seven eyes on that one stone, and I will engrave an inscription on it,' says the LORD Almighty, 'and I will remove the sin of this land in a single day.

10 " 'In that day each of you will invite his neighbor to sit under his vine and fig tree,' declares the LORD Almighty."
Are you kidding?

Quote:
MORE: I propose that a link between Messiahs and fig trees has here been established.
No, you're not proposing that (or at least, not establishing that). You're proposing that Jesus cursed a fig tree for not bearing fruit out of season because Yahweh declared that after he removes sin, everyone will "invite his neighbor to sit under his vine and fig tree."

As you can plainly see, there is no significance between the two.

Quote:
MORE: The fig tree Jesus zaps bears no fruit.
No, Jesus "zaps" the fig tree because it bears no fruit (out of season, no less, as Jesus should have known, rendering his "zapping" ridiculous).

Quote:
MORE: A Messiah who bears no fruit is pretty useless and can be seen as a false Messiah.
Ok. But, again, Jesus zapped a fig tree for not bearing fruit out of season. In season, it would have borne fruit.

:huh:

If you want to continue with the metaphor, then Jesus is stating that only false prophets bear fruit out of season, yes? What is the season for "real" prophets and why doesn't Jesus "zap" them, too? Because only he is "in season?" If so, then what is the nonsense about "out of season" prophets?

And does it matter to you that Yahweh does not speak of any season in regard to either the vine or the fig tree?

Quote:
MORE: I therefore suggest that what Jesus zaps in the form of the fig three is one or more false prophets.
Again, he zaps the fig tree for not bearing fruit, which, presumably means he's zapping the "shoot" for not bearing fruit (in your terminology). If he is the shoot in Isaiah, then who is he talking about? Who is he "zapping?" Himself? Why? Why would the "true" shoot need to "zap" anybody at all?

Quote:
MORE: These could be spokesmen from factions competing with the Mark community, or they could be something more general like the Pharisees. It is not necessary to posit that it is the whole of Israel, as after all the Messiah is supposed to save Israel, not zap it.
No, the "messiah" (one of them anyway) is supposed to "zap" Israel (and by extention, presumably, the whole globe) into the stone age in order to prepare the way for Yahweh to arrive on Earth.

Quote:
MORE: This leaves the question of whence the bit about out of season.
Ahh, finally.

Quote:
MORE: This could be a reference to people who speak for god, or pretend to do so, but whose time has passed, whose season is gone. A faction like the Pharisees again comes to mind.
A "faction" against god?

So, let's recap, shall we? Jesus physically curses a tree for not bearing fruit when it's not supposed to as a metaphor for people whose time has passed and don't....what? Reallize that a tree that doesn't produce fruit when it's not supposed to is a metaphor for false prophets? How could that be? A tree that doesn't produce fruit when it's not supposed to is...well.....a tree.

That's what trees do; they do not produce fruit out of season. So how is "zapping" a tree for being a tree result in any kind of coherent, relevant metaphor? We're not....what....as wise as trees who do not grow fruit out of season?

Why would the "true" Messiah curse anything at all?

:huh:

If you merely respond with "the reasons given" (or something similar), we'll have issues.
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Old 12-23-2006, 10:43 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by gstafleu View Post
In a slightly mysterious passage Jesus zapped a fig tree for not having any fruit ready. E.g.:

A little while after that the troupe passes by the fig tree again and it has withered. The question now is: why would Jesus zap the poor tree. Mark even supplies that it was out of season for figs, so zapping seems a bit excessive.
..........
Gerard Stafleu

I'm looking at Jeremiah 7 and Jeremiah 8...The whole thing...
Do you see a connection to what Jesus is getting involved with around the time of the fig tree cursing and the expulsion of the money changers from the Temple?
Is there any parallel there? Was Jesus reading Jeremiah at the time?
Look at Jeremiah 8:13 in reference to the fig tree...
What is the relation here?
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Old 12-24-2006, 07:07 AM   #6
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How about Hosea:

Quote:
The Fig Tree Withers:
T2: Matthew 21:19 - Hosea 9
"1 Do not rejoice, O Israel; do not be jubilant like the other nations. For you have been unfaithful to your God; ... 7 The days of punishment are coming, the days of reckoning are at hand. Let Israel know this. Because your sins are so many and your hostility so great, the prophet is considered a fool, the inspired man a maniac. 8 The prophet, along with my God, is the watchman over Ephraim, yet snares await him on all his paths, and hostility in the house of his God. 9 They have sunk deep into corruption, as in the days of Gibeah. God will remember their wickedness and punish them for their sins. 10 'When I found Israel, it was like finding grapes in the desert; when I saw your fathers, it was like seeing the early fruit on the fig tree. But when they came to Baal Peor, they consecrated themselves to that shameful idol and became as vile as the thing they loved. 15'... Because of their sinful deeds, I will drive them out of my house. I will no longer love them; all their leaders are rebellious. 16 Ephraim is blighted, their root is withered, they yield no fruit. Even if they bear children, I will slay their cherished offspring.' 17 My God will reject them because they have not obeyed him; they will be wanderers among the nations." (Note: Many scholars have interpreted the cursing of the fig tree as a metaphor for Jesus' rejecting of those Jews who reject him and as a foreshadowing of his second coming and judgment. Hosea 9 provides the scriptural basis for this symbolism)
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Old 12-24-2006, 08:48 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Thomas II View Post
I'm looking at Jeremiah 7 and Jeremiah 8...The whole thing...
Do you see a connection to what Jesus is getting involved with around the time of the fig tree cursing and the expulsion of the money changers from the Temple?
I'm not sure why there would have to be a connection. What we have here is Jesus walking around. In a little while he'll go do his money changers thing, but on the way there he comes by (a) false prophet(s) whom he zaps. I don't really see a problem there.

Gerrad Stafleu
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Old 12-24-2006, 09:02 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Koyaanisqatsi View Post
In specific? You mean, in reality, or in metaphor?
Given that we are talking about metaphors and metaphors about metaphors here, I'm not sure there is a difference between the two in this case .
Quote:
Isaiah specifically states that the roots will bear fruit, but Jesus finds "nothing but leaves." Aka, no fruit. He's supposed to be the fruit, yes? So why does he curse the fig tree and why wasn't there any fruit?
As I read it, the messiah is the new shoot from the "stump of Jesse." The fruits he will bear are his acts which will result in good things for Israel. A fig tree without fruits is therefore a messiah who does not deliver good things for Israel, a false prophet. As for the out of season, a tree is out of season once its time for bearing fruits has passed. So the metaphor is saying that the time of these false prohets, e.g. the pharisees (prohets used in a wide sense here) has passed.

Quote:
What? Are you having us on? Where in any of that does it link "messiah" and "trees" that are cursed for bearing no fruit out of season?
I hope I clarified that above. I think that your other comments stem from your assuming that I think the metaphor means something else than what I just stated.

Gerard Stafleu
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Old 12-24-2006, 11:37 AM   #9
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gstafleu: As I read it, the messiah is the new shoot from the "stump of Jesse." The fruits he will bear are his acts which will result in good things for Israel.
Ok.

Quote:
MORE: A fig tree without fruits is therefore a messiah who does not deliver good things for Israel, a false prophet.
All right.

Quote:
MORE: As for the out of season, a tree is out of season once its time for bearing fruits has passed.
As well as just before it is time for its fruits to grow.

Quote:
MORE: So the metaphor is saying that the time of these false prohets, e.g. the pharisees (prohets used in a wide sense here) has passed.
Except that he curses the fig tree for not growing fruit out of season. In short, he's cursing a fig tree for being a fig tree. That's what fig trees do; they don't bear fruit out of season.

That's not at all analogous to what you're saying and is illogical at best; incoherent at worst. For it to be analogous, Jesus should have held up a fig tree branch without fruit and said something like, "False prophets are like fig trees that bear fruit out of season; you know they must be false, because fig trees only bear their fruit when it is time to bear their fruit, so any man who tries to sell you figs out of season is only trying to sell you bad figs."

Or words to that effect. No cursing needed.

:huh:
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Old 12-24-2006, 01:14 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Koyaanisqatsi View Post
Except that he curses the fig tree for not growing fruit out of season.
Ah, I see what you're getting at. "When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs." And then he zapped it. So you think Jesus said "It's out of season and you're still not growing fruit eh?" Zap! That is not very logical, as you I think have also noted.

My interpretation is: Jesus came upon a fig tree without fruit and said "You're season is over and you'll never bear fruit again, so who needs you." Zap! This makes more sense when we translate the allegory: Jesus came upon a false prophet and said "You're time has gone, you're never going to do anything useful, so who needs you." Zap!

Gerard Stafleu
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