Originally Posted by la70119

Problem is, Justin contradicts himself in his I Apology.<snipped>

Originally Posted by la70119

And then he goes on in explaining why the "Sons of Jupiter" did not imitate "the being crucified." <snipped>

It's all about the Sign of the Cross, by which, Justin contends, even images of the Roman Emperors are deified by this form at their funerals. Beginning with Julius Caesar.

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

I think you need to be careful about using Justin Martyr to show parallels between pagan and Christian beliefs. Justin was trying to prove that these parallels existed to a pagan audience that thought Christians believed something unusual. Thus his claim to them: "We [Christians] propound nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter". He was trying to PROVE that Christianity was similar to pagan beliefs, he wasn't trying to explain the similarities away.

Have a look at the parallels he produces above: Christ being crucified and going to heaven is the same as:

* AEsculapius being struck by a thunderbolt and ascending
* Bacchus being torn limb-from-limb and ascending
* Hercules dying a fiery death and ascending
* Bellerophon riding to heaven on the winged horse Pegasus
* Ariadne being set among the stars
* Julius Caesar's spirit being seen to rise to heaven from his funeral pyre

So why didn't the pagans see the parallels? Justin explains it was because the devil tried to copy the prophecies of the Hebrew prophets, but got them wrong. From his First Apology:

"And these things were said both among the Greeks and among all nations where they [the demons] heard the prophets foretelling that Christ would specially be believed in; but that in hearing what was said by the prophets they did not accurately understand it, but imitated what was said of our Christ, like men who are in error, we will make plain."

Some of his parallels are close (Justin mentions Perseus being born of a virgin as an obvious parallel, for example), others not so close. Obviously a man riding his flying horse to heaven is a parallel to Jesus being crucified and then ascending to heaven in some way, but depending on the argument it may not be a meaningful parallel. Justin can be used to show beliefs in dying-and-rising gods, but some use him to show beliefs in crucified gods, which he obviously doesn't support. So Justin needs to be used carefully as a source for parallels. For those interested, I go into more details on my website page that looks at Diabolical Mimicry.

Originally Posted by la70119

Problem is, Justin contradicts himself in his I Apology.

I Apology 21:



I Apology 55:

Originally Posted by No Robots

Pagans always strain to find pagan parallels: they usually ignore the obvious Jewish parallels, like Elijah, described in this post.

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

That isn't a contradiction. "We propound nothing new or different" relates to the gods and men dying (though in the case of the man on the flying horse, not even that) and ascending to heaven.

How does that explain why the sons of Jupiter didn't imitate being crucified? I don't get it.

Originally Posted by dog-on

Regardless if Justin does or does not contradict himself, such an issue is irrelevant to the question I was actually answering.

Originally Posted by la70119

Actually it is, because in this Apology, Justin was claiming that the Devils imitated Jesus Christ in advance because of the prophecies from the Old Testamant. In this case, the prophecies from the Septuagint (that's a whole 'nother can o' worms that really throws a wrench into Justin's argument but I'll skip it for now). And the wicked Devils imitated all the aspects of Jesus Christ as revealed in the prophecies, except his crucifxion, which they totally missed because all the prophecies of the cross were in symbolism and allegory.

Never mind the fact that Jesus either never existed or didn't fulfill even 10% of these prophecies, and what Justin is spouting here is just bunkhum, twaddle and nonsense.

Originally Posted by dog-on

Hi Don,

If you may have noticed, I made no comment other than to point out what I considered to be the most reputable source on "Jesus contemporaries/precedents", that was relevant to what was requested by the OP. That being the case, I am not sure why you say I need to be careful citing Justin Martyr. His actual apology, in this instance at least, is actually irrelevant to the question at hand.

Originally Posted by la70119

For example, Dionysus was supposed to have been hanged on a tree or became one with the tree. Another example, Adonis / Tammuz was pierced through with a tusk of a wild boar, with the wild boar still wearing it. Ianna descended into the Underworld and was promptly hanged on a stake. Philosophers would say, although they're not exactly like crucifixion, they were close enough. (Remember, the ancients considered direct impalement as a form of crucifixion.)

Originally Posted by la70119

Nor was it because the Emperors were deified at their funerals with their images fastened to cruciform tropaea, i.e., crosses. It was because (they claimed) Jesus Christ was put to death through torture by being nailed to such a tropaeum.* And in this case, Justin is correct.

Originally Posted by la70119

Problem is, the Romans never used a tropaeum as a means of torture, suspension and execution. That would be elevating a criminal as a god

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

The OP asked for "figures which match up with Jesus story". Justin says the devil copied from the Hebrew Scriptures, but got them wrong basically. So even Justin puts a caveat on the parallels. It doesn't mean they are not parallels, but it wasn't the case that Justin reluctantly admitted to parallels, but that he actively went looking for them, but pretty much admits that they are not exact.