Freethought & Rationalism Archive

mountainman · 10-30-2007, 08:01 PM

When did the "Spain" that Paul speaks of
first exist? What does the Greek and Latin
say of this place "Spain" with respect to
the source Romans 15:28? What do the
major three codexes say?

Has this been discussed here?

Best wishes,

Pete Brown

Clivedurdle · 11-01-2007, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Hispania
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Hispania was the name given by the Romans to the whole of the Iberian Peninsula (modern Portugal, Spain, Andorra, Gibraltar and a very small southern part of France). When Rome was a republic, Hispania was divided into two provinces: Hispania Citerior and Hispania Ulterior. During the Principate, Hispania Ulterior was divided into two new provinces, Baetica and Lusitania, while Hispania Citerior was renamed Tarraconensis. Subsequently, the western part of Tarraconensis was split off, first as Hispania Nova, later renamed Callaecia (or Gallaecia, whence modern Galicia). From Diocletian's Tetrarchy (AD 284) onwards, the south of remaining Tarraconensis was again split off as Carthaginiensis, and probably then too the Balearic Islands and all the resulting provinces formed one civil diocese under the vicarius for the Hispaniae (that is, the Celtic provinces).

Origin of the name

The term Hispania is Latin and the term Iberia is Greek. Surviving Roman texts always use "Hispania" (first mentioned in 200 BC by the poet Quintus Ennius) while Greek texts always employ "Iberia".

To substitute Spanish for Iberian or for Hispanicus is anachronistic and often misleading, since Iberia and Hispania referred not just to modern Spain but to the whole Iberian Peninsula, and the modern term 'Hispanic' is used to refer to Spanish people and the Spanish speaking peoples of the Americas.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispania

Romans should talk of Iberia. What does it say?

Toto · 11-01-2007, 12:18 PM

parallel translations and languages

Quote:

Greek NT: Tischendorf 8th Edition with Strong's Numbers
τοῦτο οὖν ἐπιτελΪσας, καὶ σφραγισάμενος αὐτοῖς τὸν καρπὸν τοῦτον, ἀπελεύσομαι δι’ ὑμῶν εἰς Σπανίαν·

Greek NT: Byzantine / Majority Text (1995) with Strong's Numbers
τουτο ουν επιτελεσας και σφραγισαμενος αυτοις τον καρπον τουτον απελευσομαι δι υμων εις την σπανιαν

Spania.

Ben C Smith · 11-01-2007, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

What do the
major three codexes say?

Which three are you referring to? Vaticanus and Sinaiticus, surely, but what is the other one? Alexandrinus? Bezae?

Ben.

Ben C Smith · 11-01-2007, 02:38 PM

(BTW, 1 Maccabees 8.3 uses the same term as Paul.)

mountainman · 11-01-2007, 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben C Smith

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

What do the
major three codexes say?

Which three are you referring to? Vaticanus and Sinaiticus, surely, but what is the other one? Alexandrinus? Bezae?

The former. I have always seemed to have read that
the Bezae as being "after" these leading three in rank
of "some kind of descendancy".

Best wishes,

Pete

Clivedurdle · 11-02-2007, 02:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

parallel translations and languages

Quote:

Greek NT: Tischendorf 8th Edition with Strong's Numbers
τοῦτο οὖν ἐπιτελΪσας, καὶ σφραγισάμενος αὐτοῖς τὸν καρπὸν τοῦτον, ἀπελεύσομαι δι’ ὑμῶν εἰς Σπανίαν·

Greek NT: Byzantine / Majority Text (1995) with Strong's Numbers
τουτο ουν επιτελεσας και σφραγισαμενος αυτοις τον καρπον τουτον απελευσομαι δι υμων εις την σπανιαν

Spania.

Is wiki correct that Iberia should be here? When was Spania first used? Is it like Britain and England are used interchangeably?

Ben C Smith · 11-02-2007, 06:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Is wiki correct that Iberia should be here? When was Spania first used? Is it like Britain and England are used interchangeably?

I sort of answered this. No, it is not correct that Iberia should be here (and I do not think Wiki is actually saying that). I do not know when the term was first used, but 1 Maccabees, in Greek, has Spania (which is just a shortening of Hispania). The two terms, [Hi]spania and Iberia, were virtually interchangeable, IIUC.

Ben.

Clivedurdle · 11-03-2007, 03:31 PM

I have interpreted wiki's statement about Iberia as agreeing that Paul writing in Greek in the first century should have used Iberia - unless he had a strangely educated scribe or this is an example of this Pauline school that has been proposed.

What are the possible explanations for this? Is one that this letter is much later than assumed?

CX · 11-04-2007, 12:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben C Smith

I do not know when the term was first used

Quintus Ennius ca 200 BCE

10-30-2007, 08:01 PM	#1
mountainman Contributor Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Falls Creek, Oz. Posts: 11,192	Romans 15:28 - Country anachronism? [Spain or Iberia] When did the "Spain" that Paul speaks of first exist? What does the Greek and Latin say of this place "Spain" with respect to the source Romans 15:28? What do the major three codexes say? Has this been discussed here? Best wishes, Pete Brown

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11-01-2007, 02:38 PM	#5
Ben C Smith Veteran Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Midwest Posts: 4,787	(BTW, 1 Maccabees 8.3 uses the same term as Paul.)

11-03-2007, 03:31 PM	#9
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	I have interpreted wiki's statement about Iberia as agreeing that Paul writing in Greek in the first century should have used Iberia - unless he had a strangely educated scribe or this is an example of this Pauline school that has been proposed. What are the possible explanations for this? Is one that this letter is much later than assumed?

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