Malachi151

It looks to me like Paul was writing to these people around the time of Passover, in preparation for Passover, or something like that, and he only calls Christ "our Passover Lamb" out of relevance to the coming Festival.

No where else does it say in Paul's letters that Jesus was killed on Passover, and I suspect that this letters of Paul, once again, may have created the idea that was later expanded upon by the author of Mark, that Jesus was symbolic of the Passover lamb, and was thus killed during Passover, but looking at Paul's letters, and this passage in particular, I don't think that Paul thought Jesus had been killed on Passover. This just happened to be a figure of speech that he employed because of the proximity of the Passover festival.

Ben C Smith

So Mark, in order to make good on this Pauline metaphor, decides to make Jesus symbolic of the Passover lamb and, to that end, wraps up the Passover meal before Jesus is even arrested?

Perhaps you are confusing John and Mark. It is John who seems to place the crucifixion at about the same time as the slaughtering of the lambs. Mark places the crucifixion a full day later, after the lamb has already been eaten.

Ben.

Roland

Actually, the fact that Jesus just happened to be sacrificed during the Passover celebration is yet another indication that the story is just too cute by half to be taken seriously as history.

Anybody who has ever read Tolstoy knows that life just doesn't work that way. Events are far too variable and far too out of our control for any one individual - especially one with no political or legal power - to get all the elements to fall into place as perfectly as Jesus does. I mean here's this itinerrant preacher from Palestine who decides to go to Jerusalem on the week of the Passover, turn over a few tables in the synagogue, get himself arrested and condemned for blasphemy then crucified on a cross, all like clockwork, just in time for the Passover for which he hopes to be a symbol for all eternity.

Now if that doesn't scream "Fiction!", I don't know what does.

Roland

By the way, Malachi, I just finished your book, "Jesus: A Very Jewish Myth" today and I must say I really loved it. You lay out your argument very effectively and I learned many things that I didn't previously know about pre-1st Century Jewish writings and their influence on the Jesus story.

It makes a wonderful companion piece to Doherty's book, although I think it is actually more accessible to the lay reader than is "The Jesus Puzzle."

Highly recommended.

:notworthy:

Larsguy47

This is a common error and acomplex problem because of the subtle language style and very common misconceptions about Jewish tradition. There is no contradiction between John and the Synotic gospels.

Jesus is the symbolic Passover Lamb, but he fulfills all the rituals of the Law, so this would be nothing new. But specifically there were two week long festivals the Jews held, six months apart. Jesus was to arrive at the time of one, the Festival of Booths, and to die at the time of the other. The Festival of booths represents when "god" would come down to dwell with men in a booth, meaning Jesus would not be born in a house but in a booth, which turned out to be an animal shelter. That's the significance of that festival.

Passover represents the sacrifice of the lamb who does represent Jesus Christ. Since Christ could not both be the lamb and celebrate passover as well, he dies on the preparation day just before the second sabbath day of passover, Nisan 20th. So he does die during Passover Week, but obviously not on passover since passover was eaten by him with his disciples.

But the language of John is specialized and misunderstood as a contradiction.

Basically when the Greek pronound "de" is used with the time of the day it means "just before." When it is left off, the reference is inclusive.

For instance, when Mary Magdalene comes to the tomb "early" at John 20:1 the term for early is prwi which is a reference to the watch. From 3am to sunrise (6 am) was the "early morning watch". But the Greek word de is not used with it. This would indicate it was during the early watch. But at Mark 8:9 where it notes the time Jesus rose it uses the word "de" and thus the time is de prwi, but-early. That means it was just before the early watch, and thus prior to 3:00 a.m.

The same goes for the special day of "preparation." When preparation is used without the de, it clearly indicates it was during that day. "Preparation" occurs without "de" for all instances when Jesus is being laid in the tomb on the day of preparation just before the sabbath. But at John 19:14 where it speaks of the trial it uses "de preparation", which indicates this was the afternoon before preparation. Thus Jesus' trial was at noon the day before preparation and Jesus then died on "preparation for passover", that is the second passover special sabbath day of the 7th day of unfermented cakes, the 21st. But not understanding this special use of "de" to indicate just before, the translators have John 19:14 being read as if it were already the day of preparation at noon and thus presume it contradicts the gospels.

Therefore, the lambs killed for passover were killed at the usual time, in the afternoon of Nisan 14th, the day of preparation. But when it became sunset, that began the sabbath day of the first day of unfermented cakes. There were two special sabbaths during Passover week: the 1st and the 7th, which were the 15th and the 21st of the month of Nisan.

Thus Jesus ate the traditional passover which was already a sabbath day after sunset. By now the custom might have been to consider the 15th to begin at sunset but in earlier times the date did not actually change until midnight. At any rate, by midnight it was the 15th and a Saturday as well so Jesus could not have died on this day. He was arrested and sent to Pilate and then sent to Herod on this day, but he did not die this day. Herod kept him in custody and tried him until Wednesday, Nisan 19th, which was "de preparation" or the day before preparation. He returned Jesus to Pilate at that time, having found him innosent. After Jesus' final trial he was led out to Calgary and then impaled that night at 9:00 p.m. (the third hour, Mark 15:25). But by now it was preparation. Jesus remained on the cross all that night and into the next morning when at noon, it got dark for three hours. Jesus died at 3:00 p.m. on this day of preparation, Nisan 20th, at the same hour the lambs are sacrificed on Nisan 14th. But this was a Thursday and the next day, the 21st was a special passover sabbath day. That's why John 19:14 calls it "preparation for passover" a reference to a passover-related sabbath day preparation. "Passover" by now was used to refer to the entire 8-day festival.

By sundown, Jesus was in the tomb. At sundown the sabbath began. Jesus would be resurrected that Sunday morning. Since Friday was a sabbath and Saturday was a sabbath, there were two sabbath days in a row. So in this way Jesus was in the grave for "three days and three nights" (Matt. 12:44).

Since he still died Passover week and specifically at the same time as the lambs were killed on the 14th, as well a day of "preparation", he did fulfill being the Passover Lamb still.

LG47

Malachi151

No, I wasn't thinking about John, but yes John is more clear in its Passover Lamb imagery.

Forget about Mark for a minute though. My question really is, does Paul show that he thought Jesus was killed on Passover? Nowhere aside from this passage even hints at such a possibility, but looking closer at this passage makes me think that he indeed didn't think of Jesus as having been killed on Passover.

Again, this seems to be a letter that was written to a group of people coming up on Passover, and his only reason for calling Jesus the Passover Lamb is in relation to the Festival. He is equating everything to the festival, including them as yeast.

Ben C Smith

No offense, Lars, but this explanation is entirely false.

The particle de is not a pronoun; it is a conjunction. And it conjoins phrases; it does not modify elements within those phrases in the manner you suggest.

Ben.

Malachi151

I defiantly agree with that. I am wondering if perhaps this passage from Paul had an influence on this story line, and why, if he had indeed been killed on Passover, why more wasn't made of this both by Paul and in the other early epistles, especially Hebrews,

Clivedurdle

Where are the other NT references to the lamb of god (who of course as a Jewish sacrifice would become roast lamb of god)? Hebrews, Revelation?

Lamb of God sermons were a favourite of the pentecostal preachers of my childhood - and then we would go home to my mum's roast lamb with mint sauce for Sunday lunch!

(Was Round the Horne broadcast Sunday lunchtimes? No wonder I did not remain a xian!)

(Roland - love it!)

GakuseiDon

Paul places the "stumbling block" in "Zion". If this is a reference to the crucifixion taking place in Jerusalem, then it is possible that the reason that Jesus is in Jerusalem in the first place (assuming that he was a non-native of Jerusalem) was for the Passover festival. So the "Passover lamb" makes sense.

If Jesus wasn't crucified around the time of the Passover, what could Paul mean by "Passover lamb"?