Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Duvduv · 03-13-2013, 07:30 PM

Jake, on what basis can you hang an entire movement and its founder on one measly inscription or on a few words in a highly questionable text?

jakejonesiv · 03-13-2013, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

Jake, on what basis can you hang an entire movement and its founder on one measly inscription or on a few words in a highly questionable text?

It is more than we have for the Ten Commandments.
I have covered all of this before in "Slandering Marcion."
But do not worry Duvduv, a thundering herd of Hobby Horses with too much time on their hands is on the way to save your bacon that will drown out any sensible discussion of the subject.

:hobbyhorse::hobbyhorse::hobbyhorse::hobbyhorse::h obbyhorse::hobbyhorse:

Duvduv · 03-13-2013, 08:14 PM

It doesn't matter how many church apologists you identify, the fact is there is nothing that proves the existence of any writings or the movement in the second century. You can dismiss this as a hobby horse, but that doesn't change anything.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakejonesiv

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

Jake, on what basis can you hang an entire movement and its founder on one measly inscription or on a few words in a highly questionable text?

It is more than we have for the Ten Commandments.
I have covered all of this before in "Slandering Marcion."
But do not worry Duvduv, a thundering herd of Hobby Horses with too much time on their hands is on the way to save your bacon that will drown out any sensible discussion of the subject.

:hobbyhorse::hobbyhorse::hobbyhorse::hobbyhorse::h obbyhorse::hobbyhorse:

Toto · 03-13-2013, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

It doesn't matter how many church apologists you identify, the fact is there is nothing that proves the existence of any writings or the movement in the second century. You can dismiss this as a hobby horse, but that doesn't change anything.

If you are looking for absolute certainty, of the sort that religious believers pretend to have, then of course, nothing is proven.

But then you are probably in the wrong forum.

If you are just applying the normal standards of history, then the existence of a Marcionite church and competing sects is probably enough for most purposes.

stephan huller · 03-13-2013, 09:21 PM

and if duvduv was honest he'd apply the same standards to his own religion and then he'd realize that there is no difference between many of the reports of the tannaim and Marcion. If anything Marcion has far greater historical value than Akher or Meir for that matter. Not that it will make a dent in his obtuseness.

Duvduv · 03-13-2013, 10:14 PM

I knew Stephan would bring this up. Does the argument for the existence of Marcion depend on how I view the Tannaim or on its own merits? At least I admit to unempirical faith, and I wish those who insist on an unempirically proven existence of Marcion would do the same.
And Toto, I do not expect absolute certainty, just evidence. Or at least an admission of faith.xpect

stephan huller · 03-13-2013, 10:21 PM

Quote:

I knew Stephan would bring this up. Does the argument for the existence of Marcion depend on how I view the Tannaim or on its own merits?

It doesn't depend on it but it shows you apply critical methodology selectively - which means you're opinion doesn't mean much.

Duvduv · 03-14-2013, 12:16 AM

In other words you mean everyone should rally around the unproven claims about Marcion since a person who questions them has distasteful opinions in other ways? Does that make sense?

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Quote:

I knew Stephan would bring this up. Does the argument for the existence of Marcion depend on how I view the Tannaim or on its own merits?

It doesn't depend on it but it shows you apply critical methodology selectively - which means you're opinion doesn't mean much.

Iskander · 03-14-2013, 12:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

In other words you mean everyone should rally around the unproven claims about Marcion since a person who questions them has distasteful opinions in other ways? Does that make sense?

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

It doesn't depend on it but it shows you apply critical methodology selectively - which means you're opinion doesn't mean much.

Marcion is the sacred hobby horse in this forum, without it they have nothing to copy and paste.

All roads lead to Rome and all posts lead to Marcion.

maryhelena · 03-14-2013, 01:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

and if duvduv was honest he'd apply the same standards to his own religion and then he'd realize that there is no difference between many of the reports of the tannaim and Marcion. If anything Marcion has far greater historical value than Akher or Meir for that matter. Not that it will make a dent in his obtuseness.

"..Marcion has far greater historical value...:?

So, what is your position on Marcion, Stephan? For the life of me I can't fathom it out from your posts. Did Marcion, in your view, exist as a historical person? And if so - what dating are you giving to him?

Quote:

Marcion Was a Heretic Invented in the Third Century to Gloss Over the Controversies Associated with St Mark in Second Century Palestine

http://stephanhuller.blogspot.com/20...-in-third.html

The bottom line for me, my friends, is that we can be fairly certain that Justin never wrote an Against Marcion, nor did Irenaeus - despite what the testimony of the present edition of Against Heresies has to say about that. Noe we have Jerome admitting that a great many spurious texts were written in the name of Modestus, thus cast doubt on the 'Against Marcion' associated with the writer. Why is it so unlikely given the forgery, manipulating and editing associated with the Against Heresies tradition that a third century editor was trying to prove that a great number of third century witnesses knew about the existence of a fictitious 'Marcion' the head of the Marcionites?

"....a fictitious 'Marcion'"...?

Methinks some clarification of your position on Marcion is in order....

03-13-2013, 07:30 PM	#1
Duvduv Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: USA Posts: 4,095	Questioning the existence of a historical Marcion split from dating Paul Jake, on what basis can you hang an entire movement and its founder on one measly inscription or on a few words in a highly questionable text?

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03-13-2013, 09:21 PM	#5
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	and if duvduv was honest he'd apply the same standards to his own religion and then he'd realize that there is no difference between many of the reports of the tannaim and Marcion. If anything Marcion has far greater historical value than Akher or Meir for that matter. Not that it will make a dent in his obtuseness.

03-13-2013, 10:14 PM	#6
Duvduv Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: USA Posts: 4,095	I knew Stephan would bring this up. Does the argument for the existence of Marcion depend on how I view the Tannaim or on its own merits? At least I admit to unempirical faith, and I wish those who insist on an unempirically proven existence of Marcion would do the same. And Toto, I do not expect absolute certainty, just evidence. Or at least an admission of faith.xpect

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