Freethought & Rationalism Archive

GakuseiDon · 11-02-2005, 12:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sky kunde

So Mr. Till made a great mistake for having used this at a debate?

I just had a look at what he said, and he seems to repeat a lot of disinformation about Krishna.

Till says: Space won't allow a review of all these myths, but the Hindu version is worth looking at, because it is strikingly parallel to Matthew's story. According to Hindu literature, when Krishna, the eighth incarnation of the god Vishnu, was born to the virgin Devaki, he was visited by wise men who had been guided to him by a star. Angels also announced the birth to herdsmen in the nearby countryside. When King Kansa heard about the miraculous birth of this child, he sent men to "kill all the infants in the neighboring places," but a "heavenly voice" whispered to the foster father of Krishna and warned him to take the child and flee across the Jumna river.

Breaking it down:

Krishna, the eighth incarnation of the god Vishnu, was born to the virgin Devaki

Krishna was the eighth son of Devaki, so she couldn't have been a virgin when she had Krishna. Any site that refers to "the virgin Devaki" usually gets its information from a Christ Myth site.

he was visited by wise men who had been guided to him by a star

Not true as far as I know.

Angels also announced the birth to herdsmen in the nearby countryside

Not true. IIRC an angel appeared and threatened King Kansa, though.

When King Kansa heard about the miraculous birth of this child, he sent men to "kill all the infants in the neighboring places

Kansa sent a demoness out to find and kill Krishna, so kind of true. Krishna kills her by sucking out her life-force while she breastfeed him.

a "heavenly voice" whispered to the foster father of Krishna and warned him to take the child and flee across the Jumna river

Kind of true. Though calling it a "heavenly voice" is disengenious. In fact, the speaker was "a beautiful youth of sixteen, holding mace and discus, conch shell and lotus in his four hands, rose above the horizon of their mental firmament, healing all their mental wounds, cheering and exhilarating them with his sweet smile".

From here: http://www.hinduism.co.za/krishna1.htm There are various versions of the Krishna myth, but I don't know of any that matches the claims of Till.

Roller · 11-02-2005, 04:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

AFAIK Buddha never walked on water, but I'd be interested to learn otherwise.

OK, I'm trying to find the source of the image. I came across this little gem: "The Lord Buddha performed a miracle by stopping a rainstorm and flooding in the presence of the three arrogant hermits. Having seen the miracle, they submitted to the Lord Buddha and listened to his sermon. The three hermits and their 1,000 followers were so impressed with the preaching that they were willingly ordained as monks." From here. If this is true, it seems he performed miracles in order to convert. No? Anyways, I'm trying to find the image of him walking on water.

Dharma · 11-02-2005, 05:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

I just had a look at what he said, and he seems to repeat a lot of disinformation about Krishna.

Till says: Space won't allow a review of all these myths, but the Hindu version is worth looking at, because it is strikingly parallel to Matthew's story. According to Hindu literature, when Krishna, the eighth incarnation of the god Vishnu, was born to the virgin Devaki, he was visited by wise men who had been guided to him by a star. Angels also announced the birth to herdsmen in the nearby countryside. When King Kansa heard about the miraculous birth of this child, he sent men to "kill all the infants in the neighboring places," but a "heavenly voice" whispered to the foster father of Krishna and warned him to take the child and flee across the Jumna river.

Breaking it down:

Krishna, the eighth incarnation of the god Vishnu, was born to the virgin Devaki

Krishna was the eighth son of Devaki, so she couldn't have been a virgin when she had Krishna. Any site that refers to "the virgin Devaki" usually gets its information from a Christ Myth site.

he was visited by wise men who had been guided to him by a star

Not true as far as I know.

Angels also announced the birth to herdsmen in the nearby countryside

Not true. IIRC an angel appeared and threatened King Kansa, though.

When King Kansa heard about the miraculous birth of this child, he sent men to "kill all the infants in the neighboring places

Kansa sent a demoness out to find and kill Krishna, so kind of true. Krishna kills her by sucking out her life-force while she breastfeed him.

a "heavenly voice" whispered to the foster father of Krishna and warned him to take the child and flee across the Jumna river

Kind of true. Though calling it a "heavenly voice" is disengenious. In fact, the speaker was "a beautiful youth of sixteen, holding mace and discus, conch shell and lotus in his four hands, rose above the horizon of their mental firmament, healing all their mental wounds, cheering and exhilarating them with his sweet smile".

From here: http://www.hinduism.co.za/krishna1.htm There are various versions of the Krishna myth, but I don't know of any that matches the claims of Till.

No, I think Krishna is born in prison as King Kamsa imprisons his sister(?) and her husband due to the prophecy that their son would be the cause of his death.

I think they have 7 children -- and the evil King Kamsa smashes the children on the floor killing each one -- the last one however, flies into the air like an angel and warns him that he is going to die-- and LO AND BEHOLD! Krishna has escaped after the prison gates just open of their own will and then later the wee little baby allowed his daddy to walk across the great river Yamuna while it was raining and flooding. And Krishna did this when he was just a wee little one.

Quote:

This chapter describes how Kamsa, following the advice of his demoniac friends, considered the persecution of small children to be very diplomatic.

After Vasudeva bound himself with iron shackles as before, all the doors of the prison house closed by the influence of Yogamaya, who then began crying as a newborn child, This crying awakened the doorkeepers, who immediately informed Kamsa that a child had been born to Devaki. Upon hearing this news, Kamsa appeared with great force in the maternity room, and in spite of Devaki's pleas that the child be saved, the demon forcibly snatched the child from Devaki's hands and dashed the child against a rock. Unfortunately for Kamsa, however, the newborn child slipped away from his hands, rose above his head and appeared as the eight-armed form of Durga. Durga then told Kamsa, "The enemy you contemplate has taken birth somewhere else. Therefore your plan to persecute all the children will prove futile."

According to the prophecy, the eighth child of Devaki would kill Kamsa, and therefore when Kamsa saw that the eighth child was a female and heard that his so-called enemy had taken birth elsewhere, he was struck with wonder. He decided to release Devaki and Vasudeva, and he admitted before them the wrongness of his atrocities. Falling at the feet of Devaki and Vasudeva, he begged their pardon and tried to convince them that because the events that had taken place were destined to happen, they should not be unhappy for his having killed so many of their children. Devaki and Vasudeva, being naturally very pious, immediately excused Kamsa for his atrocities, and Kamsa, after seeing that his sister and brother-in-law were happy, returned to his home.

After the night passed, however, Kamsa called for his ministers and informed them of all that had happened. The ministers, who were all demons, advised Kamsa that because his enemy had already taken birth somewhere else, all the children born within the past ten days in the villages within Kamsa's kingdom should be killed. Although the demigods always feared Kamsa, they should not be treated leniently; since they were enemies, Kamsa should try his best to uproot their existence. The demoniac ministers further advised that Kamsa and the demons continue their enmity toward Visnu because Visnu is the original person among all the demigods. The brahmanas, the cows, the Vedas, austerity, truthfulness, control of the senses and mind, faithfulness and mercy are among the different parts of the body of Visnu, who is the origin of all the demigods, including Lord Brahma and Lord Siva. Therefore, the ministers advised, the demigods, the saintly persons, the cows and the brahmanas should be systematically persecuted. Strongly advised in this way by his friends, the demoniac ministers, Kamsa approved of their instructions and considered it beneficial to be envious of the brahmanas. Following Kamsa's orders, therefore, the demons began committing their atrocities all over Vrajabhumi.

hinduwoman · 11-02-2005, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

From that link

Indian Antiquities is out of print, but you might be able to find a library copy.

URGH!
As GakuseiDon points out the comparisons are deliberately misleading, even lies.

Devaki was not a virgin.
No angels announced the birth. BUT during his sister's wedding celebrations a voice from heaven told Kansa that Devaki's eight son would kill him. So he imprisoned her.
after Krishna's birth Vishnu ordered his father to take the baby away and instead a girl child, the incarnation of the Great Goddess was left in his place. When Kamsa tried to kill her she disappeared telling him that he would be killed.

There was no slaughter of innocents a la Herod. However, Kamsa killed all previous seven sons born to Devaki.

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