Vorkosigan

I was re-reading Jan Sammer's site (www.nazarenus.com) on Jesus Passion as a play by Seneca, and saw this in a footnote:

What I can't find is an English translation of the passage. Project Gutenburg doesn't have it (!).

Vorkosigan

Haran

Seneca's De Ira - 'On Anger' in English (at least part of it)

Here 'tis in Latin if anyone knows Latin better than using a lexicon and cares to translate it...
Seneca - De Ira - The Latin Library

If a local library has the Loeb Library, you might find Seneca in one of the red (for latin, green for greek) books...

Toto

This appears to be about a Senator named Regulus. The only thing in common with Jesus is the crucifixion.

The idea of a noble person who suffers or dies for a noble cause is a fairly frequent theme in classical writings, I believe.

yummyfur

He was a Consul captured by Carthaginians during the Punic War and held captive. The Carthaginians sent him to Rome (250 BC)to argue for an exchange between Carthage and Rome of captives and for peace. Instead he argued against the exchange and peace, because it was not in the best interests of Rome. He then kept his word and went back to Carthage where he was mercilessly tortured to death. He is considered an idealized Roman for his loyalty to Rome above all else, his honor, as well his ability to stratagize.

From Horace's Odes 3.5

Jove rules in heaven, his thunder shows;
Henceforth Augustus earth shall own
Her present god, now Briton foes
And Persians bow before his throne.
Has Crassus' soldier ta'en to wife
A base barbarian, and grown grey
(Woe, for a nation's tainted life!)
Earning his foemen-kinsmen's pay,
His king, forsooth, a Mede, his sire
A Marsian? can he name forget,
Gown, sacred shield, undying fire,
And Jove and Rome are standing yet?
'Twas this that Regulus foresaw,
What time he spurn'd the foul disgrace
Of peace, whose precedent would draw
Destruction on an unborn race,
Should aught but death the prisoner's chain
Unrivet. “I have seen,” he said,
“Rome's eagle in a Punic fane,
And armour, ne'er a blood-drop shed,
Stripp'd from the soldier; I have seen
Free sons of Rome with arms fast tied;
The fields we spoil'd with corn are green,
And Carthage opes her portals wide.
The warrior, sure, redeem'd by gold,
Will fight the bolder! Aye, you heap
On baseness loss. The hues of old
Revisit not the wool we steep;
And genuine worth, expell'd by fear,
Returns not to the worthless slave.
Break but her meshes, will the deer
Assail you? then will he be brave
Who once to faithless foes has knelt;
Yes, Carthage yet his spear will fly,
Who with bound arms the cord has felt,
The coward, and has fear'd to die.
He knows not, he, how life is won;
Thinks war, like peace, a thing of trade!
Great art thou, Carthage! mate the sun,
While Italy in dust is laid!”
His wife's pure kiss he waved aside,
And prattling boys, as one disgraced,
They tell us, and with manly pride
Stern on the ground his visage placed.
With counsel thus ne'er else aread
He nerved the fathers' weak intent,
And, girt by friends that mourn'd him, sped
Into illustrious banishment.
Well witting what the torturer's art
Design'd him, with like unconcern
The press of kin he push'd apart
And crowds encumbering his return,
As though, some tedious business o'er
Of clients' court, his journey lay
Towards Venafrum's grassy floor,
Or Sparta-built Tarentum's bay.

The cross part might be a mistranslation? in Seneca's epistles he talks of Regulus again, confined in a chest, I would assume with the nails reference he was held in a chest of nails and not on a cross.

EPISTLE LXVII.
......
Now a life of honour includes various kinds of conduct; it may include the chest in which Regulus was confined, or the wound of Cato which was torn open by Cato's own hand, or the exile of Rutilius, or the cup of poison which removed Socrates from gaol to heaven. Accordingly, in praying for a life of
<Ep2-39>

the other section in On Anger that is again a reference to Regulus in the english translation is (this is the part Vorkosigan mentioned)

ON ANGER, 1. 1. 7-ii.3
some way the countenance. Where, then, lies the difference? In this - the other emotion
ns show, anger stands out.
Moreover, if you choose to view its results and the harm of it, no plague has cost the human race more dear. You will see bloodshed and poisoning, the vile countercharges of criminals,/a the downfall of cities and whole nations given to destruction, princely persons sold at public auction, houses put to the torch, and conflagration that halts not within the city-walls, but makes great stretches of the country glow with hostile flame./b Behold the most glorious cities whose foundations can scarcely be traced - anger cast them down. Behold solitudes stretching lonely for many miles without a single dweller - anger laid them waste. Behold all the leaders who have been handed down to posterity as instances of an evil fate - anger stabbed this one in his bed, struck down this one amid the sanctities of the feast,/c tore this one to pieces in the very home of the law and in full view of the crowded forum,/d forced this one to have his blood spilled by the murderous act of his son, another to have his royal throat cut by the hand of a slave, another to have his limbs stretched upon the cross. And hitherto I have mentioned the sufferings of individual persons only; what if, leaving aside these who sinely felt the force of anger's flame, you should choose to view the gatherings cut down by the sword, the populace butchered by soldiery let loose upon them, and whole peoples condemned to death in common ruin
[Ess1-111]

but the latin is "alium in cruce membra diffindere", cruce in latin can mean cross, but also torture in general or impaling stakes(nails,spike). It could be translated as "another had his limbs split from impaling stakes" instead of "another to have his limbs stretched upon the cross". The verb diffindere means split more than it does stretch.



Patrick Schoeb

Toto

Jan Sammer

Doctor X

That is DR. Velikovsky to you!

--J.D.

Doctor X

That is DR. Velikovsky to you!

--J.D.

Haran

The section you quoted was from "On Providence". The section referred to in Vorkosigan's post was "On Anger".

The quote does not seem too impressive. I don't know whether there is more to it... It would be interesting to hear an elaboration on why this is believed to refer specifically to Jesus. I suppose it is possible but doesn't seem like a strong connection to me from what I read.

Amos

If there is a reference to Jesus it will be to compare and highlight the difference between the two.

Senecan tragedies are failed divine comedies and will not have any real victory in the end (no resurection follows the crucifixion or such similar event) and they will return to religion in the end.

The coward, and has fear'd to die.
He knows not, he, how life is won;
Thinks war, like peace, a thing of trade!

Macbeth is a simplified Senecan tragedy but Titus Andronicus gives the gory details as juxtaposed with Julius Ceasar. However, here too, I think, the coward fears death and knows not how life is won.

yummyfur

See my post above for more details, this qoute is actually about Regulus again, if you read the whole of Seneca's essays this becomes more obvious. My feeling is that none of these should have been translated as cross, the latin word cruce has many meanings including cross, but also general torture or implaing stake or spike. The most likely translation that fits the details of Regulus and Seneca's other mentions of his torture is impaling stake or spike from a chest of nails, or iron maiden like chest.

Tertullian has a similar usage for the word cruces, in a section on Regulus.

here is Tetullian's On Martyrs
Chapter 4
.....
Regulus, a Roman general, who had been taken prisoner by the Carthaginians, declined to be exchanged for a large number of Carthaginian captives, choosing rather to be given back to the enemy. He was crammed into a sort of chest; and, everywhere pierced by nails driven from the outside, he endured so many crucifixions.

IN Latin

Regulus, dux Romanorum, captus a Carthaginensibus, cum se unum pro multis captivis Carthaginensibus compensari noluisset, maluit hostibus reddi et in arcae genus stipatus undique extrinsecus clavis transfixus, tot cruces sensit

Patrick Schoeb