spin

I note the fact that Josephus tells us about a conflict between the Pharisees and their opponents during the later Hasmonean period and nothing else chronologically about them.

He gives a discussion about the various Jewish sects which is based on Nicolaus of Damascus and says that he settled on the Pharisaic persuasion, which doesn't seem to add any history to the pot, given that his presentation seems idealized and his choice may be based more on idealization than reality.

Rabbinical sources don't give any indications of 1st century conflicts between the Pharisees and anyone else. They give Hillelite/Shammaite conflicts in the 1st century.

It seems we are left with the christian literature to give us the impression that the Pharisees and Sadducees were still in operation in the 1st century. But is it true?

stephan huller

Don't know. But why would the gospel make reference to the Pharisees as being an active force in Jewish religious life unless it were true? The Samaritans don't specifically reference the Pharisees but say that the Dositheans resembled the 'Jews' with their respect to certain halakhic decisions when the Sadducees are known to agree with mainstream Samaritanism. There must have been 'another' tradition also owing to the fact that the Rabbanites often agree with the opponents of the Qumran material. Moreover the rabbinic literature identifies itself with some other tradition other than the Sadducees. Also since the Pharisees was a name given to the enemies of the Samaritans by the Samaritans themselves it is difficult to know what the Pharisees originally called themselves.

Tommy

Is the inferrance from Josephus that Pharisees stopped being an influential party prior to the first century CE?

stephan huller

Here is the reference from Abu'l Fath chronicle:

thief of fire

Asserting things are "given" does not make them so though. You could present a case, some evidence, a reference or some reasoning why this is "given".

Ok, an argument from silence, which is something but not too much. When you write "the Pharisees" what do you mean? Do you mean something like portrayed in the gospels? Do you mean a particular club with clear membership? Do you mean a general attitude?

If as you seem to believe Paul wrote in the first century, why would he refer to himself as a pharisee, if they weren't in operation?
So whether it is true, we can't say 100% but it is the best explanation in the absence of any other explanation.

spin

Perhaps, you could find out the scholarly views on the subject.

There are two types of argument from silence: a) those that don't talk about something, and b) those that don't about something that they should talk about. We are interested in the second here. If the Pharisees were a going concern in the 1st century, you'd expect that the Jews who preserved their traditions of the time with a copiousness that is reassuring to mention them.

The alternative is to trust a set of texts we cannot date and which we know contains significant amounts of ahistorical materials.

Now here I am not asserting for sure that there were no Pharisees in the first century, but I am floating the notion to see if it can stay up. If you want to assert that there must have been Pharisees, fine, but I'm not interested. If you wonder about the evidence then you might find trying to deal with the issue useful.

I'm one of those people who believes Philippians is a heterogeneous work.

maryhelena

Who, besides Josephus, says the Pharisees were active during the time of Alexandra? "Alongside her, to help her in ruling, she had the Pharisees, " (War Book 1 ch.5)

And, being active helping Alexandra - the Pharisees would have been active during the time of her husband, Alexander Jannaeus - and once that name pops up - we are back in a Toledot Yeshu time frame.....

Methinks, a lot of the Josephan writing is in support of the gospel JC story.....:constern01:

stephan huller

The rabbinic tradition repeats this. I don't have the reference in front of me. But the idea is shared.

Bernard Muller

to spin,
In Josephus' works, in the 1st century period, "Pharisee" or "Pharisees" are mentioned in Wars 2.162 & 2.411, in Ant. 18.1, 18.11 & 18:16 and in Life 7 & 195.

In Josephus' works, in the 1st century period, "Sadducee" or "Sadducees" are mentioned in Wars 2.119 & 2.162, in Ant. 18.11, 18:16 & 20.197 and in Life 7.

Cordially, Bernard

stephan huller

Correction