Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Cege · 08-02-2007, 05:10 PM

"3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures," NIV

The word translated "scriptures" into English is the Greek word transliterated graphē in Strong's.

Biblical usage is either "writings" or "holy scripture", ie, OT books.

Was Paul saying that OT scripture holy to Christians spelled out a 3rd day resurrection of the Jewish messiah, or, that Paul had received information in writings not included in a holy writ that predicted a 3-day resurrection after the death of the messiah?

Toto · 08-02-2007, 05:46 PM

The graphē were the Hebrew Scriptures, translated into Greek as the Septuagint. Early Christians read the HS as foretelling the Messiah. Some claim that they created the Messiah out of their reading of the Scriptures.

Cege · 08-02-2007, 05:57 PM

I'm in a current discussion with my Sunday School teacher who says that the graphē referred to by Paul were not the Hebrew Scriptures, because the Hebrew Scriptures do not refer to a 3rd day resurrection from death to life of the messiah.

His interpretation is that Paul was referring to early writings (such as The Sayings of Jesus) which have not survived. My interpretation is that Paul was saying Jesus revealed to Paul how the OT scriptures referred to a resurrection after 3 days--but that Paul had no specific reference to reveal to his readers.

Do you know of OT scriptures, whether Hebrew or Greek/Septuagint that refer specifically to the Jewish messiah rising from death to resurrection after 3 days?

Toto · 08-02-2007, 05:59 PM

Christians had an idiosyncratic way of reading the Hebrew Scriptures. The three days might have been a reference to the 3 days Jonah spent in the belly of the fish.

Cege · 08-02-2007, 06:08 PM

Jesus did refer to Jonah and the 3 days and 3 nights in the belly of the fish/whale, but there's nothing in the OT story of Jonah that appears to predict the same for the messiah. Besides, there's no way to stretch Jesus' death and resurrection into 3 days and 3 nights.

Paul didn't reference any specific scripture in the OT, so could he have been referring to some now extinct writings instead?

Ben C Smith · 08-02-2007, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Christians had an idiosyncratic way of reading the Hebrew Scriptures. The three days might have been a reference to the 3 days Jonah spent in the belly of the fish.

Another good candidate is Hosea 6.2.

Also compare 2 Kings 20.15 for the concept of healing on the third day. But that may be a stretch. Hosea 6.2 looks more promising in general, and Jonah 1.17 has the advantage of actually being mentioned in this very connection in Matthew 12.40.

Ben.

Cege · 08-02-2007, 06:15 PM

Thanks, Ben.

Hosea 6:2 is referenced in some translations, but really comes up as a generalization at best. Nothing specific. Seems like Jesus would have quoted it if that was the prediction verse...but he didn't.

Steven Carr · 08-02-2007, 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Christians had an idiosyncratic way of reading the Hebrew Scriptures. The three days might have been a reference to the 3 days Jonah spent in the belly of the fish.

It is surprising how readily many Christians accept parallels between Jonah and Jesus , or Elijah and John the Baptist, while fighting tooth and nail to destroy any idea that there are any parallels at all between Jesus and any pagan figure.

gurugeorge · 08-03-2007, 01:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Carr

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Christians had an idiosyncratic way of reading the Hebrew Scriptures. The three days might have been a reference to the 3 days Jonah spent in the belly of the fish.

It is surprising how readily many Christians accept parallels between Jonah and Jesus , or Elijah and John the Baptist, while fighting tooth and nail to destroy any idea that there are any parallels at all between Jesus and any pagan figure.

That's hilarious! It never occurred to me before but you are spot on! :notworthy:

Ray Moscow · 08-03-2007, 02:34 AM

I think the 3rd-day bit is a reference to a midrashic treatment of Jonah.

The "dying for our sins" bit is probably a reference to a midrashic treatment of the passover sacrifice (as we later see developed in John's gospel) and of the suffering servant motif in Isaiah.

Were there extracanonical midrashes like these circulating around for Paul to refer to? I don't know -- my argument for them is circumstantial.

Ray

08-02-2007, 05:10 PM	#1
Cege Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: 36078 Posts: 849	What are the writings referred to in 1Cor15:3-4? "3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures," NIV The word translated "scriptures" into English is the Greek word transliterated graphē in Strong's. Biblical usage is either "writings" or "holy scripture", ie, OT books. Was Paul saying that OT scripture holy to Christians spelled out a 3rd day resurrection of the Jewish messiah, or, that Paul had received information in writings not included in a holy writ that predicted a 3-day resurrection after the death of the messiah?

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08-02-2007, 05:46 PM	#2
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	The graphē were the Hebrew Scriptures, translated into Greek as the Septuagint. Early Christians read the HS as foretelling the Messiah. Some claim that they created the Messiah out of their reading of the Scriptures.

08-02-2007, 05:57 PM	#3
Cege Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: 36078 Posts: 849	I'm in a current discussion with my Sunday School teacher who says that the graphē referred to by Paul were not the Hebrew Scriptures, because the Hebrew Scriptures do not refer to a 3rd day resurrection from death to life of the messiah. His interpretation is that Paul was referring to early writings (such as The Sayings of Jesus) which have not survived. My interpretation is that Paul was saying Jesus revealed to Paul how the OT scriptures referred to a resurrection after 3 days--but that Paul had no specific reference to reveal to his readers. Do you know of OT scriptures, whether Hebrew or Greek/Septuagint that refer specifically to the Jewish messiah rising from death to resurrection after 3 days?

08-02-2007, 05:59 PM	#4
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Christians had an idiosyncratic way of reading the Hebrew Scriptures. The three days might have been a reference to the 3 days Jonah spent in the belly of the fish.

08-02-2007, 06:08 PM	#5
Cege Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: 36078 Posts: 849	Jesus did refer to Jonah and the 3 days and 3 nights in the belly of the fish/whale, but there's nothing in the OT story of Jonah that appears to predict the same for the messiah. Besides, there's no way to stretch Jesus' death and resurrection into 3 days and 3 nights. Paul didn't reference any specific scripture in the OT, so could he have been referring to some now extinct writings instead?

08-02-2007, 06:15 PM	#7
Cege Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: 36078 Posts: 849	Thanks, Ben. Hosea 6:2 is referenced in some translations, but really comes up as a generalization at best. Nothing specific. Seems like Jesus would have quoted it if that was the prediction verse...but he didn't.

08-03-2007, 02:34 AM	#10
Ray Moscow Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Surrey, England Posts: 1,255	I think the 3rd-day bit is a reference to a midrashic treatment of Jonah. The "dying for our sins" bit is probably a reference to a midrashic treatment of the passover sacrifice (as we later see developed in John's gospel) and of the suffering servant motif in Isaiah. Were there extracanonical midrashes like these circulating around for Paul to refer to? I don't know -- my argument for them is circumstantial. Ray

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