Freethought & Rationalism Archive

spin · 10-10-2006, 09:50 AM

Hold it, folks. What do we, or at least the OP, mean by "sin"?

lpetrich · 10-10-2006, 10:03 AM

I will now turn to the Exodus 20 / Deuteronomy 5 version of the Ten Commandments. The Catholic, Protestant, and Jewish versions differ in their divisions, and the Protestant version seems to me the most reasonable-looking division of the text.

1. Do not worship any gods in preference to Me. -- He worshipped no other gods, period.

Innocent

2. Do not worship or seem to worship depictions of anything. -- He never came close.

Innocent

3. Do not misuse My name -- No hint that he ever did that.

Innocent

4. Do not work on the Sabbath -- He performed lots of cures on the Sabbath and said that it was OK to collect food on the Sabbath if one is hungry.

Guilty

5. Honor your father and mother -- Not only did he violate this one, he advocated that his followers do so also:

Matthew 8:21-22, Luke 9:59-62 -- he tells someone who wanted to bury his father "Let the dead bury the dead." Is that supposed to be a joke?

Matthew 10:34-37, Luke 12:51-53, Luke 14:26 -- he announces that he's going to break up everybody's families, and that anyone who prefers their families to him are unworthy of him.

Matthew 12:46-48, Mark 3:31-34, Luke 8:20-21 -- his real family is not his biological family but his followers.

Matthew 19:29, Luke 18:29-30 -- he insists that his followers desert their biological families.

Matthew 23:9 -- don't call your human father your real father.

Luke 2:42-51 -- he was very snotty to his parents. As a boy, he and his parents used to visit the Jerusalem Temple, and one time, he studied with the scholars there and forgot about his parents. And when they find him, he was not the least bit apologetic. "Didn't you know that I had to be in my Father's house?" and he demonstrated how super-learned he was.

Guilty

6. Do not commit murder -- He never came close, at least in the canonical Gospels. But if one uses the expanded meaning "kill", then he is definitely guilty of killing a certain fig tree.

Innocent

7. Do not commit adultery -- He never came close.

Innocent

8. Do not steal -- He tells his followers to steal a donkey and a colt (Matthew 21:1-7, Mark 11:1-7, Luke 19:29-35).

Guilty

9. Do not make false accusations -- The closest he came was his foaming at the mouth at those scribes and Pharisees.

Innocent

10. Do not covet anything -- He showed little interest in material acquisition.

Innocent

The score:
Innocent: 7
Guilty: 3

According to the Infancy Gospel of Thomas, however, when he was a little boy, another little boy bumped into him and he zapped that other boy. Thus making him guilty of murder, and changing his score to
Innocent: 6
Guilty: 4

Amaleq13 · 10-10-2006, 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lpetrich

8. Do not steal -- He tells his followers to steal a donkey and a colt (Matthew 21:1-7, Mark 11:1-7, Luke 19:29-35).

Guilty

I think Mark 11:3 suggests that the owner is perfectly willing to allow Jesus to use the animals and is already aware of the plan to do so.

lpetrich · 10-10-2006, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amaleq13

I think Mark 11:3 suggests that the owner is perfectly willing to allow Jesus to use the animals and is already aware of the plan to do so.

But it does not seem like Jesus Christ's disciples were asking permission to borrow those animals; they were to tell the animals' owners that the Lord needs those animals.

Now for the Exodus 34 version, from Which Ten Commandments?

1. Worship no other god, because I am a jealous god -- no trouble there.

Innocent

2. Do not make cast idols -- no mention of it, and therefore no hint of how much he followed it or broke it, or how much he advocated following it or breaking it.

Unstated

3. Celebrate the Feast of Unleavened Bread -- like (2)

Unstated

4. All your firstborn are Mine -- like (2).

Unstated

5. Do not work on the Sabbath -- he violated it several times, as I'd explained previously.

Guilty

6. Celebrate the Feast of Weeks and the Feast of Ingathering -- like (2)

Unstated

7. Do not offer sacrifice blood with leavened bread -- like (2)

Unstated

8. Do not let any of your sacrifices remain until next morning -- like (2)

Unstated

9. Bring the first fruits of your land to My house -- like (2)

Unstated

10. Do not boil a baby goat in its mother's milk -- like (2)

Unstated

Score:
Innocent: 1
Unstated: 8
Guilty: 1

pharoah · 10-10-2006, 04:24 PM

Sending the demons into the farmers pigs and then allowing the pigs to go into the lake was deliberate destruction of someone else's property, which is almost certainly a violation of some command.

Claiming that the mustard seed is the smallest of all seeds was a violation of the commandment not to bear false witness.

Calling the scribes and Pharisees fools violated his own dicate not to call anyone a fool.

dzim77 · 10-11-2006, 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lpetrich

4. Do not work on the Sabbath -- He performed lots of cures on the Sabbath and said that it was OK to collect food on the Sabbath if one is hungry.

Guilty

Jesus defended himself here. He claims to be the Lord of the Sabbath. Who defines what it means to 'work' on the Sabbath - the Lord of the Sabbath or the Pharisees?

Quote:

When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, "Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath." He answered, "Haven't you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread—which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests. Or haven't you read in the Law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple desecrate the day and yet are innocent? I tell you that one greater than the temple is here. If you had known what these words mean, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the innocent. For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath." Matthew 12:3-8

Quote:

Originally Posted by lpetrich

5. Honor your father and mother -- Not only did he violate this one, he advocated that his followers do so also:
Matthew 8:21-22, Luke 9:59-62 -- he tells someone who wanted to bury his father "Let the dead bury the dead." Is that supposed to be a joke?

Matthew 10:34-37, Luke 12:51-53, Luke 14:26 -- he announces that he's going to break up everybody's families, and that anyone who prefers their families to him are unworthy of him.

Matthew 12:46-48, Mark 3:31-34, Luke 8:20-21 -- his real family is not his biological family but his followers.

Matthew 19:29, Luke 18:29-30 -- he insists that his followers desert their biological families.

Matthew 23:9 -- don't call your human father your real father.

Luke 2:42-51 -- he was very snotty to his parents. As a boy, he and his parents used to visit the Jerusalem Temple, and one time, he studied with the scholars there and forgot about his parents. And when they find him, he was not the least bit apologetic. "Didn't you know that I had to be in my Father's house?" and he demonstrated how super-learned he was.

Guilty

Nothing here indicates that Jesus did not honor his father and mother as is appropriate... by fulfulling his duty as a son. His view seems to be that there are situations and circumstances where God comes before family. This view is consistent with OT law in which the greatest command is to "Love the Lord your God..." and the second greatest is "Love your neighbor as yourself".

Also, consider that Jesus went to the extent of assuring his mother was to be cared for even while he was being crucified:

Quote:

Near the cross of Jesus stood his mother, his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, "Dear woman, here is your son," and to the disciple, "Here is your mother." From that time on, this disciple took her into his home.
John 19:25-27

Quote:

8. Do not steal -- He tells his followers to steal a donkey and a colt (Matthew 21:1-7, Mark 11:1-7, Luke 19:29-35).

Guilty

Amaleq explained this one.

I'm assuming this thread is a bit tongue-in-check (I hope??). If not, then perhaps you should add cannibalism to your list of sins because Jesus instructed his disciples to eat his flesh and drink his blood.

Jack the Bodiless · 10-11-2006, 08:14 AM

There was also his refusal to cure the Gentile woman (until nagged by his followers). Nowadays, we'd call bigotry a sin, and it's also implied by "love thy neighbor".

dzim77 · 10-11-2006, 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack the Bodiless

There was also his refusal to cure the Gentile woman (until nagged by his followers). Nowadays, we'd call bigotry a sin, and it's also implied by "love thy neighbor".

Jack,

reference please?

Anat · 10-11-2006, 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dzimm77

Jesus defended himself here. He claims to be the Lord of the Sabbath. Who defines what it means to 'work' on the Sabbath - the Lord of the Sabbath or the Pharisees?

Sometime in the late 1st century the Pharisees decided that God has no right to intervene with how the rabbis interpreted the law. He had is say in Sinai, and he had no more laws to give.

dzim77 · 10-11-2006, 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anat

Sometime in the late 1st century the Pharisees decided that God has no right to intervene with how the rabbis interpreted the law. He had is say in Sinai, and he had no more laws to give.

so, whether Jesus broke the Sabbath or not, depends on the validity of his claim to be Lord of the Sabbath.

If he's telling the truth, he is innocent.

If he's not, then he's lying and breaking the Sabbath.

(obviously)

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10-10-2006, 09:50 AM	#11
spin Contributor Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: nowhere Posts: 15,747	Hold it, folks. What do we, or at least the OP, mean by "sin"?

10-10-2006, 10:03 AM	#12
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	I will now turn to the Exodus 20 / Deuteronomy 5 version of the Ten Commandments. The Catholic, Protestant, and Jewish versions differ in their divisions, and the Protestant version seems to me the most reasonable-looking division of the text. 1. Do not worship any gods in preference to Me. -- He worshipped no other gods, period. Innocent 2. Do not worship or seem to worship depictions of anything. -- He never came close. Innocent 3. Do not misuse My name -- No hint that he ever did that. Innocent 4. Do not work on the Sabbath -- He performed lots of cures on the Sabbath and said that it was OK to collect food on the Sabbath if one is hungry. Guilty 5. Honor your father and mother -- Not only did he violate this one, he advocated that his followers do so also: Matthew 8:21-22, Luke 9:59-62 -- he tells someone who wanted to bury his father "Let the dead bury the dead." Is that supposed to be a joke? Matthew 10:34-37, Luke 12:51-53, Luke 14:26 -- he announces that he's going to break up everybody's families, and that anyone who prefers their families to him are unworthy of him. Matthew 12:46-48, Mark 3:31-34, Luke 8:20-21 -- his real family is not his biological family but his followers. Matthew 19:29, Luke 18:29-30 -- he insists that his followers desert their biological families. Matthew 23:9 -- don't call your human father your real father. Luke 2:42-51 -- he was very snotty to his parents. As a boy, he and his parents used to visit the Jerusalem Temple, and one time, he studied with the scholars there and forgot about his parents. And when they find him, he was not the least bit apologetic. "Didn't you know that I had to be in my Father's house?" and he demonstrated how super-learned he was. Guilty 6. Do not commit murder -- He never came close, at least in the canonical Gospels. But if one uses the expanded meaning "kill", then he is definitely guilty of killing a certain fig tree. Innocent 7. Do not commit adultery -- He never came close. Innocent 8. Do not steal -- He tells his followers to steal a donkey and a colt (Matthew 21:1-7, Mark 11:1-7, Luke 19:29-35). Guilty 9. Do not make false accusations -- The closest he came was his foaming at the mouth at those scribes and Pharisees. Innocent 10. Do not covet anything -- He showed little interest in material acquisition. Innocent The score: Innocent: 7 Guilty: 3 According to the Infancy Gospel of Thomas, however, when he was a little boy, another little boy bumped into him and he zapped that other boy. Thus making him guilty of murder, and changing his score to Innocent: 6 Guilty: 4

10-10-2006, 04:24 PM	#15
pharoah Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Georgia Posts: 1,729	Sending the demons into the farmers pigs and then allowing the pigs to go into the lake was deliberate destruction of someone else's property, which is almost certainly a violation of some command. Claiming that the mustard seed is the smallest of all seeds was a violation of the commandment not to bear false witness. Calling the scribes and Pharisees fools violated his own dicate not to call anyone a fool.

10-11-2006, 08:14 AM	#17
Jack the Bodiless Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: UK Posts: 5,815	There was also his refusal to cure the Gentile woman (until nagged by his followers). Nowadays, we'd call bigotry a sin, and it's also implied by "love thy neighbor".

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