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Old 04-22-2001, 03:20 PM   #1
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Post Amos 123, question on your comment.

Hi!
I thought I'd better ask you here rather than in the 'Jesus talking.... impossible.. cross' thread, as it is not related to that topic.

posted on April 17, 2001 07:17 PM
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Always keep in mind that our humanity is created by its counterpart womanity and the victory of the cross the the elimination of both our humanity and our womanity. In the end, what remains is Christ and Mary to be united with God as the happy trinity.</font>
Pardon my ignorance, but I've never heard about Mary being part of the trinity. Is there a change in the end? which end?
 
Old 04-22-2001, 09:43 PM   #2
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by netcat:
Hi!
I thought I'd better ask you here rather than in the 'Jesus talking.... impossible.. cross' thread, as it is not related to that topic.

posted on April 17, 2001 07:17 PM
Quote:
Always keep in mind that our humanity is created by its counterpart womanity and the victory of the cross the the elimination of both our humanity and our womanity. In the end, what remains is Christ and Mary to be united with God as the happy trinity.</font>
Pardon my ignorance, but I've never heard about Mary being part of the trinity. Is there a change in the end? which end?
Well I am glad you asked because I do not have time to revisit all the treads from before just in case there is a comment or question.

Yes, Mary is part of the resolved Trinity.

When paradise is regained, or when we have returned to Eden from where we were expelled, the Holy spirit is redundant, obviously, and so is Jesus, obviously because we will have become brothers of Christ in the manner of Jesus and will have been born of the same perpetual virgin who therefore also will be our mother and if we get this far we will happily crown her queen of heaven and earth. Catholics do this with the Assumptiond and subsequent Coronation. Protestants do not need to incorporate this in their understanding because they will never get this far.

In reality this means that we will have experienced the convergeance of our twain mind and will place our faculty of reason (Christ) subsequent to our intuition (Mary) and we will thusly be the happy trinity in charge of our destiny.

Amos
 
Old 04-23-2001, 06:56 AM   #3
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Amos, do Catholics really believe that Mary is part of the trinity?

I do not think that the majority of Christians believe this.

The trinity is: Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

Ish
 
Old 04-23-2001, 07:34 AM   #4
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Talking

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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Amos123:
Protestants do not need to incorporate this in their understanding because they will never get this far.</font>
After numerous attempts at deciphering your nutty missives, they're probably thankful about that.
 
Old 04-23-2001, 08:17 AM   #5
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Thanks for the detailed explanation Amos, but do I take this an accepted line of thinking of the Catholic Church?
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Amos123:

Yes, Mary is part of the resolved Trinity.

When paradise is regained, or when we have returned to Eden from where we were expelled, the Holy spirit is redundant, obviously, and so is Jesus, obviously because we will have become brothers of Christ in the manner of Jesus and will have been born of the same perpetual virgin who therefore also will be our mother and if we get this far we will happily crown her queen of heaven and earth. Catholics do this with the Assumptiond and subsequent Coronation. Protestants do not need to incorporate this in their understanding because they will never get this far.

In reality this means that we will have experienced the convergeance of our twain mind and will place our faculty of reason (Christ) subsequent to our intuition (Mary) and we will thusly be the happy trinity in charge of our destiny.

Amos </font>
Any other Catholic who understands/agrees with the above and say the same?


 
Old 04-23-2001, 09:14 AM   #6
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by netcat:
Thanks for the detailed explanation Amos, but do I take this an accepted line of thinking of the Catholic Church?

Any other Catholic who understands/agrees with the above and say the same?</font>
Hello netcat

I do not think we have any practicing Catholics on this site, but I am Lutheran, and are much closer to Catholic theology than either denomination cares to admit. My pastor cringes when I refer to us as Catholic-Lite.

In any event, I can assure you that no one (except Amos) that I am aware of believe what he(?) has said above. The Catholic Church certainly does not believe this.

If you would like a detailed discussion on what Catholics believe about Mary, please take a look at www.catholic.com and the following articles found there:

Mary Mother of God:

"Since Mary is Jesus' mother, the fact that she is also the Mother of God is inescapable, for if Mary is the mother of Jesus, and if Jesus is God, then Mary is the Mother of God. There is no way out of this logical syllogism, whose valid form was recognized by classical logicians since before the time of Christ.

Mary is thus the Mother of God not in the sense that she is older than God or the source of the Son's divinity (for she is neither), but in the sense that she carried in her womb a divine Person--Jesus Christ, God "in the flesh" (2 John 7, cf. John 1:14)--and in the sense that she contributed genetic matter to the human form God took in Jesus Christ."


Lutherans and Orthodox also accept that Mary is, indeed, the Mother of God as described above. As the article says, the title is really inescapable for anyone that accepts that Jesus is God Incarnate.

The Immaculate Conception and Assumption of Mary:

"The Immaculate Conception means that Mary, whose conception was brought about the normal way, was conceived in the womb of her mother without the stain of original sin The essence of original sin consists in the deprivation of sanctifying grace, and its stain is a corrupt nature. Mary was preserved from these defects by God's grace; from the first instant of her existence she was in the state of sanctifying grace and was free from the corrupt nature original sin brings."

The Orthodox Churches teach both the Immaculate Conception and Assumption of Mary into Heaven as doctrine. Lutherans leave it as an open question (IOW, we can not believe it, and not be considered in fundamental disagreement with Church doctrine). Personally, I am reasonally comfortable with the idea that Mary was assumed into Heaven (similar to the assumptions of Enoch and Elijah from the OT), but reject the Immaculate Conception as non-Biblical as it is contradicted by Romans 3:23. At the same time, I understand that some Lutherans may believe she was born without the stain of original sin, and I do not debate them on this point. I simply do not find the argument in favour of the Immaculate Conception to be convincing.

It is worth noting that Catholics do not teach that Mary never died, only that her body was taken directly into heaven (assumed) at some point in time.

Mary Ever Virgin

"Most Protestants claim Mary had children other than Jesus--those people known as the "brethren of the Lord." As explained in Catholic Answers' tract The Brethren of the Lord, that's not what the New Testament or the early Christians taught. They knew Jesus was Mary's only child and that she remained a lifelong virgin."

Like the question of the Assumption of Mary, this is treated as an open question by Lutherans. And again, Orthodox teaches Mary Ever Virgin as doctrine as well. It is worth noting that Martin Luther himself believed that Mary remained a virgin her entire life, and that the "brothers" of Jesus were actually half brothers.

As the Greek word "adelphos" is ambiguous on the point, and can be used for both "brother" and "half brother", I have made no final decision on the point. It cannot be resolved merely from Biblical textual arguments, and therefore I have remained neutral on the point. Since the earliest traditions of the Church (as represented in the apochryphal Protoevangelium of James (c. 120AD) clearly tells us that Mary remained a virgin her entire life, and this is consistent with Jewish practices (under the terms of Numbers 30 and women taking a vow of lifelong celibacy), then I see it as being possible.

If you have other questions about Mary, I would refer you to a couple more Catholic sites:

New Advent.org which includes the Catholic Encyclopedia, and a copy of the full Catholic Bible (both New American, and the older Douay-Rheims).

CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH This is a basic summary of Catholic doctrines and dogma. Use the search engine to look up specific issues. For example, the doctrine of the Trinity, as taught by the Catholic Church (and accepted by all of the orthodox Christian Churches) can be found at SECTION III. THE HOLY TRINITY IN THE TEACHING OF THE FAITH.

I hope this helps.

Peace,

Nomad
 
Old 04-23-2001, 11:11 AM   #7
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Some of Amos' expressed theology has made me wonder if he is a wolf in sheep's clothing...

If Amos is a practicing Catholic, perhaps he can point to something in the Catechism or elsewhere that echos his thoughts. Are you Greek Othodox, Amos? I don't think they believe what you wrote either, but I'm not as familiar with all of their beliefs.

Anyway, thanks Nomad. I was going to quote the Catechism of the Catholic Church, but I didn't realize it was online.

Oh well, I'll do it anyway. One short statement that seems to sum things up:

Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Catechism of the Catholic Church
266 "Now this is the Catholic faith: We worship one God in the Trinity and the Trinity in unity, without either confusing the persons or dividing the substance; for the person of the Father is one, the Son's is another, the Holy Spirit's another; but the Godhead of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is one, their glory equal, their majesty coeternal" (Athanasian Creed: DS 75; ND 16).</font>
Ish
 
Old 04-23-2001, 11:15 PM   #8
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Hi all,

It is too late for me to comment but Assumption and subsequent Coronation of Mary as the Queen of heaven and earth is celebrated by the Catholic Church.

I really do not know what Catholics believe because many of them do doubt alot. What the Cathechism teaches is true but maybe not to be understood exactly as we first perceived it to be true.

Ish, from oblivion, here upon earth in our fallen state of existence, your kind of trinity would be right. If I showed you the other perspective, as I did, do you not think that the HS would be redundant? After all, "when all has been made known", and we "have the mind of God", why would we need the HS that was send by Mary as Queen of angels? Why not put Mary in the resolved trinity? Or did you think the "dove descended" but took off again (never mind, you might think they were just 'droppings' as they are so often today).

Are you a protestant Ish? I hear there are more Cathechisms sold to protestants than to Catholics.

Amos
 
Old 04-24-2001, 06:40 AM   #9
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Nomad:
In any event, I can assure you that no one (except Amos) that I am aware of believe what he(?) has said above. The Catholic Church certainly does not believe this.</font>
Not entirely true. No, the official Catholic Church does not currently embrace it. But for a few years now, there has been a concerted effort by a strain of Catholics to have Mary declared Coredemptrix and a required conduit to redemption by Jesus.

--W@L
 
Old 04-24-2001, 08:27 AM   #10
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Thanks Nomad, the links you provided will definitely help explain, but honestly, at this point, I must admit, I'm quite confused!!
Amos
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">I really do not know what Catholics believe because many of them do doubt alot. What the Cathechism teaches is true but maybe not to be understood exactly as we first perceived it to be true.</font>
You have the freedom to put forth your new understanding, but as you mention 'Catholics doubt a lot', will this not create yet another Sect? Sad!
Religion itself keeps, lets say, 'refining' or adding dogmas, so where does this leave an atheist?! for even if an atheist comes to believe in the existence of a God, he still faces the question, 'Who Has It Right'???

Thanks for the Link Writer, I see yet another sect in the making. I wonder what will the Catholics who will not accept all five dogmas be called!?

Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">If proclaimed, the five Marian dogmas would then be:

1. that Mary is the "Mother of God"
2. that Mary was "Ever-Virgin"
3. that Mary was herself "immaculately conceived" (without sin)
4. that Mary was assumed into Heaven and crowned "Queen of Heaven and Earth"
5. that Mary is "Mediatrix of all Graces, Co-redemptrix and Advocate"</font>
 
 

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