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Old 03-15-2001, 12:24 PM   #1
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Post "Challenging the Verdict"

URL: http://www.magi.com/~oblio/jesus/StrobelIntro.htm

Earl Doherty's criticism of Strobel's book defending the historicity of the New Testament account of Jesus Christ.

Doherty's review makes lots of interesting points, some of which may be familiar to many of you people. However, the review contains a comment about the pagan mystery cults that is especially interesting -- why would the followers of several different cults suddenly remodel their rites on some obscure cult that denied all gods but theirs? That would seem to be necessary according to the hypothesis of Christian influence on them, which might seem to have happened, since the bulk of the documentation of those pagan cults is from Christian sources. However, despite the secretiveness of these cults, bits and pieces did get out before them, as in Euripides' _Bacchae_ about some worshippers of Dionysus.

As Mr. Doherty notes, the usual answer by Christian theologians was that the Devil had created these rites to lead people astray so they would be kept away from the True Religion that would eventually appear. Thus, stories of dying and resurrected deities (like you-know-who), initiation rites (baptisms), and sacred meals (Communion) would all be some dirty trick by that Evil God.

Also, Mr. Doherty describes an interesting double standard in the Strobel book, noting that book's dismissal of the miracles of Apollonius of Tyana as "legendary". However, it is very typical of Christian apologists to be very unwilling to take seriously the miracles of other religions; it is as if only their religion has miracles.
 
Old 03-16-2001, 05:48 AM   #2
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Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by lpetrich:
URL: http://www.magi.com/~oblio/jesus/StrobelIntro.htm

Earl Doherty's criticism of Strobel's book defending the historicity of the New Testament account of Jesus Christ.

Doherty's review makes lots of interesting points, some of which may be familiar to many of you people. However, the review contains a comment about the pagan mystery cults that is especially interesting -- why would the followers of several different cults suddenly remodel their rites on some obscure cult that denied all gods but theirs?
</font>

Meta =&gt; First because it was sucessful, secondly, we know that the Mirtha cult did so, Cumont proved that. They did it because the Romas at their stronghold in Ostia did short tours of duty in Jersusalem and they saw Chrsitianity, they understood the amazing spread of it and were drawn to it. thridly because most of the so called paraells are just over blown and sily. Fourth because many of them are flat out lies! Neither Krishna, nor Mithras, nor Osiris, nor TAmuz nor many others were crucified, ever! Nor were they born of virigins, nor did they rise from the dead except in the most mythological and archetypical sense.


Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
That would seem to be necessary according to the hypothesis of Christian influence on them, which might seem to have happened, since the bulk of the documentation of those pagan cults is from Christian sources. However, despite the secretiveness of these cults, bits and pieces did get out before them, as in Euripides' _Bacchae_ about some worshippers of Dionysus.</font>

We can document a great deal of the influence in Action. Julian the Apostate consciously copied a good many Christian features.


Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
As Mr. Doherty notes, the usual answer by Christian theologians was that the Devil had created these rites to lead people astray so they would be kept away from the True Religion that would eventually appear. Thus, stories of dying and resurrected deities (like you-know-who), initiation rites (baptisms), and sacred meals (Communion) would all be some dirty trick by that Evil God.</font>

No that's bull. He says that because he can't answer the real arguments. I was in a news group with him on this topic and began to argue directly with him. He couldn't hold up his end of it and so they kicked me out of the news group. No one argues this BS. We can show the influences, plain and simple.

Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
Also, Mr. Doherty describes an interesting double standard in the Strobel book, noting that book's dismissal of the miracles of Apollonius of Tyana as "legendary". However, it is very typical of Christian apologists to be very unwilling to take seriously the miracles of other religions; it is as if only their religion has miracles.[/B]</font>

A of T's miracles were recorded about 200 years afte he lived. They weren't based on any eye witnesses, and he lived a lavish and extravigant life style and made a lot of money off of what he did, totally unlike Jesus who "has no place to lay his head." There is a great deal of difference in the two. He also had no body of ethical teachings to pass on. The two are not comprable.


Jesus Christ and Mythology

JC and myth part 2

Against Dorhtey's Jesus Puzzle


 
Old 03-16-2001, 06:30 AM   #3
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First because it was sucessful, secondly, we know that the Mirtha cult did so, Cumont proved that.

Where are you getting this? Cumont's position was that Mithraism was an import from Persia. Recent work has showed that it dates from the second century BC and is wholly European in origin. Christian skeptics have long railed against Cumont.

See this adaptation of an article in Bib Arch Rev:

http://www.well.com/user/davidu/mithras.html

They did it because the Romas at their stronghold in Ostia did short tours of duty in Jersusalem and they saw Chrsitianity

This sentence is so weird I can't make sense of it. No wonder they kicked you off the board, if you are unable to string words together to form coherent thoughts. Ostia is in Italy outside Rome. Is it your contention that:

1) Ostia is the only Roman fortress?

2) That all Roman troops garrisoning Judea came from Ostia?

3) That all Romans originated in Ostia?

Michael

Michael
 
Old 03-16-2001, 08:24 AM   #4
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"As Mr. Doherty notes, the usual answer by Christian theologians was that the Devil had created these rites to lead people astray so they would be kept away from the True Religion that would eventually appear. Thus, stories of dying and resurrected deities (like you-know-who), initiation rites (baptisms), and sacred meals (Communion) would all be some dirty trick by that Evil God."


Well then, that would mean that the Devil was the winner over God! Obviously, if some were pursueded to follow the wrong religion by the Devil's schemes, then God's will is thwarted. Seems like God is very inefficient and ineffective and certainly not omnipowerful. This theology stuff is so insane! But fun!
 
 

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