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Old 07-03-2001, 08:20 AM   #31
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Someone7:
Layman, how about you look at the percentage of intellectuals who are atheists? Around 60% of scientists are non-theists (atheist or agnostic), particularly biologists and physicists (77.9%).

http://exn.ca/Stories/1997/04/04/01.asp

I don't think statistics exist on philosophers, but recently I had a conversation with the professor of philosophy at FSU (who told me he was moving to Arizona), and he said atheist and theist philosophers generally agree there are no compelling arguments for the existence of God. Judging by this, I would guess the majority of his colleagues are non-theists, or just fideists.

Religion is shit easily feed to the masses, true understanding is not. So can you explain why non-theism is so rampant among intellectuals? You think your evil atheist conspiracy can handle that?

[This message has been edited by Someone7 (edited July 03, 2001).]
</font>
I'm not sure being a biologist automatically makes one an intellectual. Regardless, it is beside my point. Atheism's success has come largely through oppression. I never claimed that is the only way it can spread, or that this has any bearing on its truthfulness, its just a fact.
 
Old 07-03-2001, 08:22 AM   #32
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by turtonm:
Ish, Layman's really not onto anything. Only a Christian would be dumb enough to think that millions of people forcibly indoctrinated into anything was a success.

Michael
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I don't think that the millions of atheists in formerly communist countries who were forcibly indoctrinated into atheism "was a success." That's my point. It is a shame.
 
Old 07-03-2001, 08:26 AM   #33
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Le pede:
[B]Layman is getting on his high horse about how Western European nations are more tolerant and those are the ones with the most Christians. But Christianity (ESPECIALLY this particular form of Christianity) can thank persecutions and brutal suppression of rivals for its supremacy. </font>
I'm not on any high horse about Western Europe. I actually have a rather low opinion of many Western European nations. I was just pointing out that atheism has spread largely through coercion and govermental oppression. My point is not that Western Europe is necessarily more tolerant because they are Chrsitians, but that the former USSR is largely atheist because of government coercion and persecution.

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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"> Layman mentioned South Korea, but let's not forget about how Christianization took place in Asia. Thanks to Western colonial exploiters' guns, missionaries were able to help "civilize" the backwards brown and yellow peoples. </font>
You do know that the colonial exploiters who have had the most influence in South Korea were the Japanese don't you? Christiany's success in South Korea has been more recent, and quite astonishing. As has the underground church in China. Neither success story came about as a result of government coercion and forced indoctrination.

 
Old 07-03-2001, 08:44 AM   #34
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From Layman:
“What is even more weird is that a tiny minority of people deny that God exists.”

What tiny minority? Anyhow, I’ve never said that god does not exist. I’ve just never seen any evidence that s/he does.

Also:
“But I'm willing to concede that several decades of harsh governmental persecution of theists is likely to produce a more atheistic population. “

I think that several decades of applied thought may accomplish the same thing.
 
Old 07-03-2001, 08:48 AM   #35
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by turtonm:
Not only is he morally suspect, as usual, Layman has his facts wrong....

But there is another historical example of atheists run wild and that is France's Reign of Terror. Clergy and devout Catholics were hunted down, their property taken, and, often, their lives taken as well.

It is clear that the French revolution was trying to set up a Deistic state Church in opposition to the Catholic clergy, who had served the Ancien Regime and helped the monarchy oppress the people. In other words, they weren't atheists....the first article of the Convention was: "The French people recognize the existence of a Supreme Being and the immortality of the soul". What they objected to was Catholicism, and the way that Christianity had served Authority (imagine that!).

As usual, when it's not in first century Palestine and the 50 books you actually know, Layman....


Michael
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As usual you have done a quick internet search and think you've discovered an error. But since your only goal was to attempt to portray me as ignorant, you didn't dig deep enough. Once the Reign of Terror subsided, thank God, the revolutionaries became aware of the fact that the people would not tolerate an atheistic government. So they adopted diestic language to save their own revolution (and lives).

The Reign of Terror lasted from September 1793 until July 28, 1794. It was initiated and lead by the Committe for Public Safety. There were no Christians on the CPS, rather it was made up largely of atheists and agnostics. Will Durant, The Age of Napolean, 71-75. The CPS was extremely hostile to Christianity and, in fact, was very atheistic. When the city of Lyons, with many financiers and devout Christians, refused to submit to the CPS, an army was dispatched to subdue them. The CPS army seized Lyons and was issued the following order: "The city of Lyons shall be destroyed." The CPS army gladly accepted their orders and began razing the city.

They began with a mock-religious ceremony in commemoration of Chalver (revolutionary leader) as the 'saviour-god who had died for the people.' Leading the prcession was a donkey garbed as a bishop bearing a miter on his head and dragging a crucifix and a Bible on his tail; in a public square the martyr was honored by eulogies and a bonfire was made of the Bible, a missal, sacramental wafers, and wooden images of sundry saints.

This was just the beginning. Lyon citizens were lead out to trenches and mowed down by cannon fire. Over 1600 prisoners were killed.

The CPS took much broader actions against Christianity that were not limited to Lyons:
1. The CPS made de-Christianityzation a special element in their procedure.
2. Priests and nuns were forced to marry. Those that refused were banished from France.
3. Christians were not allowed to have religious funerals.
4. Cemetaries were forced to display signs saying that death is an eternal sleep.
5. In Malins, the CPS' representative lead a processing that smashed all crosses, crucifixes, and religious images.
6. Church property was siezed by the government.
7. Church buildings were ordered turned into schools or poor houses.
8. The CPS renamed the Notre Dame Cathedral, the Temple of Reason. Supporters of the CPS danced naken throughout the newly renamed Temple of Reason and had sex in the various chapels.
9. All churches in Paris were ordered closed.

Finally, a faction of the CPS lead by Robespierre realized that continued opposition to religion would be unfruitful so it converted the rhetoric to be more diestic and less anti-Christian. Thereafter, Robsepierre actually attempted to channel religious belief into diesm. But will little success.

So you see Turton, the Reign of Terror was a war of the atheist and "skeptical" agnostic on Christianity. Thank God the reign finally ended and the anti-religious zeal was tempered, and then made diestic sounding noises.
 
Old 07-03-2001, 09:15 AM   #36
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Layman:
I don't think that the millions of atheists in formerly communist countries who were forcibly indoctrinated into atheism "was a success." That's my point. It is a shame. </font>
Communists (China) are not neccessary atheists.
Although religions are being discouraged, the people are still free to believe in what they like.

Only when groups of people with the same believe get together & there is potential for trouble did the government react.
Take as eg. the TianAnMen issue of 89 & Falungong issue quite recently.

Communism like democracy & Falungong are all idealogies, they have a fixed set of rules/regulations/laws that people following them must follow.

Atheism is also an idealogy but it differs from others in that it lacks a fix set of rules/regulations/laws for people to follow. Atheists follows whatever they like & bear with those that they don't inorder to have order in a society - society needs order to function.

Therefore, atheism cannot oppress, supress or whatever you claim atheism of doing. Only idealogies that have a fixed set of rules/regulations/laws can do those things & only idealogies with those fixed thingies can kill, destroy, commit atrocities etc...

Atheism can only contribute to the well being of a society whereas idealogies with fixed thingies can create problem as well as wellness for a society.

Idealogies with fixed thingies are two faced, atheism only have one.

BTW Indoctrinations are usually carried out to promote the idealogy itself. How successful it is depends on alot of things. Xianity have its own set of indoctrination as well & its also not as successful as it seems. What a joy.

PS I truly admire China in its effort to root out xianity but some how its a group of US people whom with their brand of "human rights" is making it hard for them to finish their work. Talk about "human rights" when they don't even have the basic courtesy of asking for permission to preach first. What a f**king shame - A group of f**kers who don't know how to respect others.

(This is not mean as an insult to all US citizens but only to a particular group who seems like they would die if they cannot force their f**king religious idealogy onto others of the world.)

"Respect others first if you wish others to respect you !"
 
Old 07-03-2001, 09:21 AM   #37
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KCTAN:

Well, if you or any of your fellow skeptics are going to defend China's actions against the students in Teinaman Square, Fulongong, and the underground christian church in China, I don't think we have enough common ground to continue the discussion.
 
Old 07-03-2001, 09:39 AM   #38
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Otherwise, I think Layman is just being argumentative, probably trying to link atheism with the worst thing he can think of to counter the association of Christianity with the Inquisition. </font>
Hmmm. Hadn't thought of that. But it's a good point. However, my main point is simple: atheism's success has largely come about by governmental oppression.

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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Or perhaps he cannot imagine not believing in god unless he lived under a communist regime. That is a failure on his part to understand the opposing argument, and his loss. It may also explain why he is getting snippy - he has no respect for the people he is arguing with, and cannot accept that they have genuine beliefs. </font>
This is a very ironic point to make Toto. I accept that you guys have genuine beliefs. Where have I ever questioned your sincerity in being a skeptic? But most skeptics on this board have no respect for me in particular or theists in general.

My point is not a secret or motivated by some secret anxiety, it is simple: atheists have succeeded in spreading their message mostly by forced indoctrination and governmental oppression.

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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Most of the atheists in the U.S. and Western Europe did not derive their beliefs from living under a communist government, and most seem to be closer to libertarianism. So what is Layman's point here? </font>
At first I did focus on the United States, but Turton correctly raised the scope of the inquiry to the world. And once we arrive there we see that atheists generally succeed in spreading their message by governmental coercion. Sure there are some exceptions. But the number of athiests in the United States is very low. Especially compared with the former USSR and communist China. Oh, and East Germany. That was a very useful statistic, thanks Turton.

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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">As for reading the Bible leading to atheism - my evidence is all anecdotal. ....</font>
Thanks, that is as far as you had to go.

 
Old 07-03-2001, 10:31 AM   #39
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Turton,

I could not find the 41 million atheists in Europe figure in the middle of the linked page. I also could not find it using the search function. And I reread it and still could not find it. Could you please cut and paste the 41 million figure for atheist in Europe?

Sorry I haven't been able to find it,

Thanks
 
Old 07-03-2001, 10:32 AM   #40
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">I'm not on any high horse about Western Europe. I actually have a rather low opinion of many Western European nations. I was just pointing out that atheism has spread largely through coercion and govermental oppression. My point is not that Western Europe is necessarily more tolerant because they are Chrsitians, but that the former USSR is largely atheist because of government coercion and persecution.</font>
And the reason that Christianity (as we know it) is supreme in Europe is because of (historical) persecution as well.

The point of your reference to South Korea's conversions recently escapes me. You seem to be showing that Christianity can flourish voluntarily. This is not under dispute. But Christianity has had plenty of time to secure its grip on Europe and force its way into Africa, Asia and Latin America. Because one can point out an Asian country and say, "see there are voluntary conversions there" does not change the fact that Christianity's influence, from a historical perspective stems from persecution.

Interestingly, the theology Christians are most likely preaching in South Korea can thank the brutal suppression of rivals.
 
 

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