not a theist

Let's see if I can manage to ask this convoluted question.

Jews believe themselves to be "children of Abraham" via Isaac then Jacob.
Arabs (and some other people of the Near East) believe themselves to be "children of Abraham" via Ishmael.

Did the pre-Moslem pagan Arabs believe them selves to be descended from Abraham or was that belief introduced with their conversion to Islam?

Marduk

good question, I don't know so I'm bumping it back to the top, I'd like to know too.

not a theist

So should I infer that no one here knows the answer?

[ July 31, 2001: Message edited by: not a theist ]

Marduk

bump again, this is a good question, need an answer!

Bedouin

The Arabs are not from the descendent of Abraham (pbuh), they have been existed even before he born.
However, Ishmael (the oldest son of Abraham) grow up between the Arabs, he marred from them, and he spoke their language, so Ishmael and his descendent after him consider to be an Arabs,
Also there are many tribes today whom are from the descendent of Ishmael (like the tribe of korishe and tamemy) prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is from the descendent of Ishmael, but most of the Arab tribes (whom are the native of Arabia) are not from Ishmaelic descendent,

Slaam
Peace ,

Toto

I tried to do some quick research on this. It seems agreed that modern Islam got a lot from the pagan Arabs - the name "Allah" was the name of an Arabic moon god, and the pagan Arabs prayed facing towards Mecca, fasted for one month a year, and celebrated the Eid. But nothing about Ishmael.

The tradition that Ishmael moved to Mecca comes from the Quran. Presumably it derived from Mohammed's study with Jewish scholars.

I don't know why you would think that Abraham was part of any pre-Islamic, non-Jewish Arab tradition. If he were, it would be some strong proof of the historicity of the OT, and you would be hearing about it from every (mono)theist as external proof of the Bible.

not a theist

Actually, it wouldn't provide that much support since one would also have to examine the potential for the Arabs to have borrowed the tradition from the Jews at an earlier point. I knew that certain of the Islamic traditions pre-dated Islam but was unaware if this was one of them.
I'm not sure that most Christians would appeal to it as it could also tend to validate Islam thus being a double-edged sword for them.

I wonder if Bedouin can provide any archaeological or pre-Islamic manuscript documentation for his claim that any pre-Islamic Arabs believed what he posted above.

Imhotep

i don't know that mohammed studied with the jews. What i know is that he can't read.

Bedouin

One of the main sources of pre-Islamic Arabic history is the poems (the Arabs use to glorify poems and the best of there poems they use to hang them up in there holiest place the kaaba(the cubic building in macca) they call these best poems (almoalkat)which means the hanged one ( because they haged them in the wall of the kaaba ) (BTW we have many of those (alomalkat poems) online in the Internet )
Also every tribe have there own history, and there own poets. And through poems they record the meager events in the tribe.

Doubting the exiting of Ishmael tribes is just like doubting the Existing of Israeli tribes, I think a small study of Arab’s tribal system and you can easily tell the deferent between the Ishmaely Arab and the rest of the Arab tribes.




Arabic poetry encyclopedia

[ August 13, 2001: Message edited by: Bedouin ]

not a theist

The link you gave leads to pages that are entirely in (I'm guessing) Arabic. I can't read Arabic. Do you know of any references to Ishmael in pre-Islamic Arab literature or poetry which have been translated into English.
Thanks.