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Old 04-12-2001, 08:34 AM   #1
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Post A Question of "History"

There are some posters on these boards who think they know what history is and how it should be "studied" and "understood." With this thought in mind, I ask those posters to offer their opinions on the following:

Item #1

According to the narrative attributed to Matthew, at the moment Jesus died "the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom; and the earth shook, and the rocks were split; the tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many." (27:51-53)

Question: Why should any thinking, rational human being believe that the dead saints actually came out of their graves and went into Jerusalem and appeared to the citizenry? In other words, What CONVINCING historical evidence is there to suggest that this actually happened?


Item #2

According to the writer of Acts, Jesus appeared to believers off and on for forty days after his execution. Then, "as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight. And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes, and said, 'Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven." (1:9-11)

Question: Why should any critical historian (or anyone else, for that matter) think that Jesus bodily rose into the sky and disappeared as he floated into a cloud? In other words, What CONVINCING historical evidence is there to suggest that this actually happened?

rodahi



[This message has been edited by rodahi (edited April 12, 2001).]
 
Old 04-12-2001, 09:40 AM   #2
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I'd be happy to offer my thoughts on these questions if you can clear up this episode about SecWebLurker's being banned from this site.
 
Old 04-12-2001, 10:25 AM   #3
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Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Layman:
I'd be happy to offer my thoughts on these questions if you can clear up this episode about SecWebLurker's being banned from this site. </font>
Since this seems to be just a rumor, Layman, why not go ahead and post your "thoughts?"

rodahi

 
Old 04-12-2001, 10:39 AM   #4
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Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by rodahi:
Since this seems to be just a rumor, Layman, why not go ahead and post your "thoughts?"

rodahi
</font>
Do you have the ability to verify whether or not someone has been banned?
 
Old 04-12-2001, 10:48 AM   #5
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Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Layman:
Do you have the ability to verify whether or not someone has been banned?</font>
Yes, I do. I should have a definitive answer in a few minutes.

rodahi

 
Old 04-12-2001, 12:31 PM   #6
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Question: Why should any thinking, rational human being believe that the dead saints actually came out of their graves …
and
Question: Why should any critical historian (or anyone else, for that matter) think that Jesus bodily rose into the sky…


You got me. I can’t thing of a single one. Unless, of course, they were taught this nonsense from an early age and had it reinforced by family, friends, etc. throughout their lives and never took the time to question it.
 
Old 04-12-2001, 12:38 PM   #7
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OK, I'll bite.

Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">According to the narrative attributed to Matthew, at the moment Jesus died "the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom; and the earth shook, and the rocks were split; the tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many." (27:51-53)

Question: Why should any thinking, rational human being believe that the dead saints actually came out of their graves and went into Jerusalem and appeared to the citizenry? In other words, What CONVINCING historical evidence is there to suggest that this actually happened?</font>
None. A historian cannot deal with super natural claims. All he can say is that Matthew believed he was speaking the truth.

Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">According to the writer of Acts, Jesus appeared to believers off and on for forty days after his execution. Then, "as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight. And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes, and said, 'Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven." (1:9-11)

Question: Why should any critical historian (or anyone else, for that matter) think that Jesus bodily rose into the sky and disappeared as he floated into a cloud? In othr words, What CONVINCING historical evidence is there to suggest that this actually happened?</font>
Two very different questions. For historians, see above. For 'anyone else', if they believed they had a personal relationship with this Jesus then the claim would appear reasonable to them. This would apply even if the person in question was a critical historian although they would take their professional hat off first.

Yours

Bede

Bede's Library - faith and reason
 
Old 04-12-2001, 12:59 PM   #8
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Whoa, a few minutes ago my town had a power outage that lasted about 30 seconds ... cost me about 15 minutes because of computer reloading. Maybe I should not say this! HAHA

As a pesher I know that a "cloud" is a chief priest and that heaven is the monastary at
the other Jerusalem. Jesus did not get crucified at the Jerusalem that was the residence of Caiaphas. Heaven is the namesake
of this Pharisee monastery in this other Jerusalem (Qumran) which is also known as Gallilee. There realy isn't anything mysterious when you have your idioms down pat. Please get an actual verbatim quote from the original Greek instead of getting caught in the fundie game of thinking that heaven is any thing other than a "holy of holies", i.e. a room in a church. Jesus survived the crucifixion and in order for the gospels to survive we need not to know that.

I will get back tomorrow ... spending Easter in Lousiana .. gotta go!

thanks, offa

What I mean about original (KJV) is that is you misread what is actually said, or add what you think is said ... you destroy the message. (my note on editing)

[This message has been edited by offa (edited April 12, 2001).]
 
Old 04-12-2001, 01:28 PM   #9
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Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by offa:
Whoa, a few minutes ago my town had a power outage that lasted about 30 seconds ... cost me about 15 minutes because of computer reloading. Maybe I should not say this! HAHA

As a pesher I know that a "cloud" is a chief priest and that heaven is the monastary at
the other Jerusalem. Jesus did not get crucified at the Jerusalem that was the residence of Caiaphas. Heaven is the namesake
of this Pharisee monastery in this other Jerusalem (Qumran) which is also known as Gallilee. There realy isn't anything mysterious when you have your idioms down pat. Please get an actual verbatim quote from the original Greek instead of getting caught in the fundie game of thinking that heaven is any thing other than a "holy of holies", i.e. a room in a church. Jesus survived the crucifixion and in order for the gospels to survive we need not to know that.

I will get back tomorrow ... spending Easter in Lousiana .. gotta go!

thanks, offa

What I mean about original (KJV) is that is you misread what is actually said, or add what you think is said ... you destroy the message. (my note on editing)

[This message has been edited by offa (edited April 12, 2001).]
</font>
NOTHING has been "misread," "added," or "destroyed."

"And these things having said, beholding they he was taken up, and a cloud withdrew him from eyes their. And as looking intently they were into the heaven as was going he also behold men two stood by them in apparel white, who also said, Men Galileans, why do ye stand looking into the heaven? This Jesus who was taken up from you into the heaven thus will come in the manner ye beheld him going into the heaven." Acts 1:9-11, The Interlinear Greek-English New Testament

"When he had said this, while they were looking on, he was borne on high, and a cloud blotted him from view. As they strained their eyes skywards after his going, two men in white robes appeared suddenly beside them, who said, 'Why are you Galileans staring at the sky? This Jesus who has been taken from you to heaven will return in exactly the same way as you have seen him go.'" Acts 1:9-11, Hugh J. Schonfield, The Original New Testament

rodahi



[This message has been edited by rodahi (edited April 12, 2001).]
 
Old 04-12-2001, 03:44 PM   #10
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Offa, where do you get this pesher stuff anyway? Were you the first to 'decipher' it?
 
 

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