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Old 03-16-2001, 08:16 PM   #11
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">So he'd be happier with a governmental system avowedly committed to atheism, is coercive, persecuted Christians and other minorities, and has resulted in the deaths of more than 100 million human beings, many millions by forced starvation?

I don't think so.</font>
Would he instead be head over heels thrilled about a religion (Christianity) which is constantly arguing over his teachings, can never come to a coherent conclusion about what being a "true" follower of their religion is; has also persecuted many minorites and many Christians; has also been responsible for the deaths of millions of people; and is replete with hypocrites like you who refuse to follow Jesus' teachings concerning wealth?

I don't think so.
 
Old 03-16-2001, 09:10 PM   #12
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Individual:
Would he instead be head over heels thrilled about a religion (Christianity) which is constantly arguing over his teachings, can never come to a coherent conclusion about what being a "true" follower of their religion is; has also persecuted many minorites and many Christians; has also been responsible for the deaths of millions of people; and is replete with hypocrites like you who refuse to follow Jesus' teachings concerning wealth?

I don't think so.
</font>
Have you noticed that we had different emphasis? I focus on the individual and you focus on the group. I say Jesus is concerned with the individual, not the system. You counter that Jesus wouldn't like a religion that persecutes minorities. I actually agree with that. Jesus wouldn't like such a religion. But I don't think everyone in the religion is that way. That would be bigotry.
 
Old 03-16-2001, 09:37 PM   #13
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Layman:
So he'd be happier with a governmental system avowedly committed to atheism, is coercive, persecuted Christians and other minorities, and has resulted in the deaths of more than 100 million human beings, many millions by forced starvation?

I don't think so.

The net affect of capitalism has been to feed more people than any other system has, provide better medical care than any other system has, and encourage more charitable giving than any other system has.

And no I don't think Jesus is pissed at millionaires or billionaires just because they have a lot of money. Most of them I have known have given generously to charities, much more than you have I am sure. You seem to think that they somehow took that wealth from others. They didn't. They created it. And out of the creation of that bounty they have helped many more people than those who haven't become billionaires and millionaires.

And I'll say again, I don't think Jesus is as concerned with the economic system as he is with the individual. Is he pleased with rich people who create jobs and wealth for themselves and others, and give generously to charities and to help others? I think so. Would he be disaprove of the rich many if he were mean, angry, and did not seek to help his fellow man or contribute to charity? Probably so.
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I'd just like to point out that you are equating communism with Marxism. There is nothing inherently atheistic about communism's economic model and there are historical communists who were not atheists (Essenes, Buccaneers). As a communist at heart, I wanted to make it clear.
 
Old 03-19-2001, 05:49 AM   #14
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Layman:
While I don't think Jesus was a capitalist, I don't think that it is contradicted by his teachings, and, in fact, provides more people the ability and encouragement to abide by his teachings than does the coervice communist alternative. </font>
Layman,
When JC turned over the tables of the money changers, that was the most anti-capitalistic symbolism I can imagine. Christians are so adept at finding meaning in some action of JC, can you not see it in that action. It is stunningly obvious.

That would be the equivilent of JC going to Wall Street and cutting the power off. Or maybe JC is gonna do it another way, by making the Market Value crash, I think he has already started, oh no, the end is near.

Oh, and please stop associating my meaning of communism with those atrocities, I am simply speaking of a society that is communal and the wealth of the nation is shared evenly with the citizens, not horded by the powerful decision makers.

Once again for clarity, I'M NOT COMMUNIST, I'M JUST TALKING ABOUT THEM.

[This message has been edited by dmvprof (edited March 19, 2001).]
 
Old 03-19-2001, 06:17 AM   #15
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Originally posted by dmvprof:
____________________________________________
That would be the equivilent of JC going to Wall Street and cutting the power off. Or maybe JC is gonna do it another way, by making the Market Value crash, I think he has already started, oh no, the end is near.
____________________________________________
No, I'm sorry but that wouldn't be the equivalent. Maybe if he went to the Vatican and THEN turned over MONEY-CHANGING tables, maybe then it would be equivalent.

Jesus did NOT go into the marketplace and commit this act...think about it.

Jesus's sole message was NOT to become poor and for everyone to live a monastic yet communal life.Infact, absent Paul's teachings, the Gospel of Jesus takes on a very different meaning. His most important message was to "Love God with all your heart and soul and then to treat others how you wish to be treated."

Some may look at the last verse and say see! Down with Capatalism! But in order for you to understand why our culture today has accepted both Capatalism and Christianity, please read the text of a speech given many of times by Russell Conwell entitled "Acres of Diamonds". Conwell was a common voice in America during the early 1900's who represented an eager ideology to combine social darwinism with christianity.


[This message has been edited by isa457 (edited March 19, 2001).]
 
Old 03-19-2001, 11:15 AM   #16
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ISA,
You may have your own watered down interpretation of the action of Jesus and the Money Changers, as well as the guy that wrote the "Acres of Diamonds". But if you use the English language to interpret the written events of Jesus' passion and what led to his crucifixion, Jesus' disgust with the money changers practicing in the house of god appears to be the single largest factor leading to his crucifixion. Now I'm sure your going to latch on to the House of God part, but don't you think that if Jesus thought that trading and the open market were a good thing that it would have been OK to do it in the proximity of the temple. He must have thought of it as a reprehensable activity in order to pick that as the action to confront the authorities on.

That said,
Do YOU actually believe that Jesus would have been more pleased with christian based communist society? Or do you think he would be happier with a group that all worked as individuals to gain personal wealth and made no personal commitment to helping support the community?

 
Old 03-19-2001, 08:18 PM   #17
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Jesus was angry with the money changers because they made it mandatory for worshippers to change their money into the proper denomination IN ORDER TO WORSHIP GOD.

In other words he was angry at mankind's attempts to be a liason to God.

Jesus believed that each person could individually know and worship whom he deemed the father.

The Bible, which Jesus was supposedly very accustomed with, states that the Love of money is the root of all evil, NOT that Money is the root of all evil, as some like to profess.

Besides, what system would actually enable a greater oppression of God's people, Capitalism or Communism?

Jesus may have been a spiritual revolutionary, and even a political revolutionary as some claim, but one thing he was not was an economic revolutionary.
 
Old 03-19-2001, 08:21 PM   #18
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BTW-

During Jesus's supposed trial, I don't remember reading that the council asked him one thing about the money-changers tables.

Do you?

I thought it was more like saying he was the son of God and so forth.
 
Old 03-19-2001, 08:23 PM   #19
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And another thing-

Who is better able to help his fellow man: Andrew Carnegie or the bum on the street?
 
Old 03-19-2001, 10:58 PM   #20
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by isa457:
And another thing-

Who is better able to help his fellow man: Andrew Carnegie or the bum on the street?
</font>
I guess it depends on what this 'fellow man' really needs...
 
 

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