Does anyone have any thoughts on the fact that for whatever reason the Christian Religion thrives in capitalist governments even though the doctrine of the religion is much more in accord with communist and socialist governments.

I think there are a couple of explanations mainly being that capitalist governments have more human rights. That one is obvious but then it leads you to another question. Especially in the case of America, when Christians have been left to thier own devices, they created a government that did not emphasize a "christlike" rule of government, instead leaned towards every man for himself. I know all of the founding fathers were not Christians, but I believe that the majority of the colonists that had influence were christians, I admit that this is an assumption.

Finally I get to my point. If this is a valid assesment, then I think it is grounds for arguing about the sincerity of christianity. They talk up a good game when it comes to a few bucks in the offering plate and a little charity, but when it gets to the government and real power that can affect their bank account, the majority of christians seem to throw out their christian ethic, selflessness.

David

Why do you assume that the colonists were anymore Christian than the British crown or Parliment?

How many actual histoirans view the founding of the U.S. as 'Christians left to their own devices?' none! That's totally naive. ITs a fundie line, not something historians take seriously.

Mother Terea, Albert Schweitzer, Lo Chambo, the peasant wars of South Gemrany, Joachim of ;Flora, Gerhard Grotte, The preists of Russian ORthodoxy in 1905, the Standinistas, History is full of examples of Christians who died fighiting opprtion and working for the poor.


In every time and ever place one can find Christians doing these things. Why shouldn't those Christians represent the tradition and not the others?

[This message has been edited by Metacrock (edited March 16, 2001).]

When did I assume that?


How many actual histoirans view the founding of the U.S. as 'Christians left to their own devices?' none! That's totally naive. ITs a fundie line, not something historians take seriously.


"Against a prevailing view that eighteenth-century Americans had not perpetuated the first settlers' passionate commitment to their faith, scholars now identify a high level of religious energy in colonies after 1700. According to one expert, religion was in the "ascension rather than the declension"; another sees a "rising vitality in religious life" from 1700 onward; a third finds religion in many parts of the colonies in a state of "feverish growth." Figures on church attendance and church formation support these opinions. Between 1700 and 1740, an estimated 75 to 80 percent of the population attended churches, which were being built at a headlong pace."

http://lcweb.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/rel02.html

Not a fundie line, it is arithmetic.
wait, Im defending fundies???


Mother Terea, Albert Schweitzer, Lo Chambo, the peasant wars of South Gemrany, Joachim of ;Flora, Gerhard Grotte, The preists of Russian ORthodoxy in 1905, the Standinistas, History is full of examples of Christians who died fighiting opprtion and working for the poor.

In every time and ever place one can find Christians doing these things. Why shouldn't those Christians represent the tradition and not the others?


Sure there are a few examples of sincere christian belief, they are a drop in the bucket, and they prove nothing.

Finally, the example about the American revolution was only a small part of my original post. I am more interested in the fact that christianity thrives in capitalist nations, for whatever reason, when christ teaches selflessness. That question can be asked of an individual as well, I don't think christ would have a bank account, do you?

Which Christian doctrines support the creation of a communistic state?

Layman,
I am going on the Idea that Jesus tought sharing, selflessness, loving thy neighbor, Mark 12:44. These qualities don't really line up with a capitalistic system. Don't get me wrong, Im not a communist by any means, but I do think the bible has more similarities to a communal society that supports everyone than it does a capitalistic society where it is basically dog eat dog.

I'll ask again, do you think Jesus would have had a bank account?

David

Umm, yes. His ministry was succesful enough to require the attention of a treasuer. And, apparently, prosperous enough that that treasuer could skim funds off the top without too many people noticing.

Captilism is an economic system. It certainly does not tell people that they are not to care for their brother, or love their neighbor. In fact, I would argue that it equips us to do just that. I give much more to charity not that I work in the private sector.

It seems clear to me that Jesus was trying to change people's hearts. He was not trying to force the GOVERMENT to care for everyone, but to convince the PEOPLE that they should care for each other.

And it should be added that our government, despite somewhat endorsing a capitalistic system, also offers relatively generous encouragements to people to give to charity and to care for their brother.

While I don't think Jesus was a capitalist, I don't think that it is contradicted by his teachings, and, in fact, provides more people the ability and encouragement to abide by his teachings than does the coervice communist alternative.

Layman,

With all due respect dude, JC would be absolutely pissed off at Millionaires, and Billionaires and Hell, even most 6 figure earners when in their same country people starve, can't get medical care, can't sleep on a bed.

So tell me layman, if you had a mil in the bank, and you went and bought an ocean front house, whudaya think JC would think about you? Knowing you could have sent that same money and given hundreds of families a new start, or saved literally thousands of lives in africa with food, and on and on. You are aware of the good you could do with it, instead you choose to be greedy and buy a house and live in excess. JC would be pissed and you know it.

So he'd be happier with a governmental system avowedly committed to atheism, is coercive, persecuted Christians and other minorities, and has resulted in the deaths of more than 100 million human beings, many millions by forced starvation?

I don't think so.

The net affect of capitalism has been to feed more people than any other system has, provide better medical care than any other system has, and encourage more charitable giving than any other system has.

And no I don't think Jesus is pissed at millionaires or billionaires just because they have a lot of money. Most of them I have known have given generously to charities, much more than you have I am sure. You seem to think that they somehow took that wealth from others. They didn't. They created it. And out of the creation of that bounty they have helped many more people than those who haven't become billionaires and millionaires.

And I'll say again, I don't think Jesus is as concerned with the economic system as he is with the individual. Is he pleased with rich people who create jobs and wealth for themselves and others, and give generously to charities and to help others? I think so. Would he be disaprove of the rich many if he were mean, angry, and did not seek to help his fellow man or contribute to charity? Probably so.

Layman,
That rationalization is just hilarious, does that make you sleep better at night. You are telling me that these people that live in the lap of luxury and comfort and excess are good christians. My god man, how do you love your neighbor when he is starving and you can't figure out what color to get on your next Jaguar.

Ill go back to the newest saying, WWJD. If Jesus had a billion dollars, what would he do with it? Can you see Jesus at the realtors office, or at the Ferrari Dealership or at the Yacht Club? Do you think he would hobnob with the other rich people at the country club over some wine?

or

Do you think he would withdraw it, go to Buy as many planes and food he could and fly to africa and feed people?

But you think it perfectly reasonable to believe that Jesus would endorse an atheistic system of forced compliance that has resulted in the death of over 100 million people.