FRDB Archives

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.


Go Back   FRDB Archives > Archives > Biblical Criticism - 2001
Welcome, Peter Kirby.
You last visited: Today at 05:55 AM

Notices

 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 10-28-2001, 11:35 PM   #21
svensky
Regular Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Emerald City, Oz
Posts: 130
Post

Alright, i've been having a read from the skeptical review. To be honest i'm not filled with congfidence, if anybody could point to specific articles that would be appreciated, i simple dont have time to read it all, and i am printing and reading articles that take my notice. So i may miss something simply becasue the title doesn't take my fancy. So please specifics. BTW i am intending to read the articles on daniel, i noticed scattered around the place, but i thought it would be prudent to reread daniel first, just so i have some familiarity with the whole context.

But first up, i found the article "The inconsistency of Round Earth Religionists", from the July/August 2000 edition of the skeptical review. Now the author points to six verses that allegedly prove that the bible teaches that the earth is flat. Four are from the old testament and two from the new.

May i encourage you to read the article and also dig up the verses in context from bible.gospelcom.net

The first quote is from Matthew 4:8 and a reference to Luke 4:5 where Christ is being tempted by satan. The verse at issue is

"Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor." Matt 4:8

The other one being

"The devil led him up to a high place and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world." Luke 4:5

Now i'm not sure how the author can claim that this is proof of a flat earth. I can see how it could be read that way i suppose, but at this point in history we have an educated roman world, the greeks knew the world was round, so why does this objection to the gospel not turn up till centuries later. Surely people who read copies of Matthew at the time would be able to see that it teaches nonsense. Some very educated greeks and romans became christians. Luke himself was an educated greek. So i am not convinced this is a really good "The bible teaches a flat earth argument". All it says is that Christ was shown the kingdoms of the world, i think you have to be fair in this instance and say that there are many possible explanation other than a flat earth teaching. Certianly luke's use of shown instantly (from the NIV) would tend to suggest there is a miraculous element there. At any rate to be fair i'm less than sold.

The next quote is from daniel 4:10-11 and is

[10]These are the visions I saw while lying in my bed: I looked, and there before me stood a tree in the middle of the land. Its height was enormous.[11] The tree grew large and strong and its top touched the sky; it was visible to the ends of the earth.

Now this is simple to explain, READ THE PASSAGE!!!!!! It has been said that it was unfair of me to call the authors of some of these sorts of arguments either morons, or liars. But this passage starts with the words "These are the visions i saw ...", so it is a dream, end of story, dreams and visions are not admissable as proof of flat earth theology. The first example is more credible than this.

The next quote was from psalm 103:12, now i'm not even going to bother to quote this. First it is a psalm, a song , or poetry, when i say "its raining cats and dogs" i do not mean it to be literally that felines and canies are plummeting to earth out side. It is a figure of speech, the bit relevant to the discussion in the psalm quote was "as far as the east is from the west". Again not a very good choice of quote.

Fourthly we have a quote from isaiah 40:21-22, althought the only relveant part of the quote is verse 22 which reads

"He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in."

I'm not sure why the first verse was referenced, becasue it is ommited from the quote. Now again, this is a figure of speech, certianly to claim that a quote buried in a book of prophecy, and when read in context talks clearly about Gods power and majesty is making accurate scientific statements really does raise questions.

Quote number 5 is from Job 22:14, the passage reads

"Thick clouds veil him, so he does not see us as he goes about in the vaulted heavens."

in the NIV, but the reference in the text says "He walks on the dome of the sky", perhaps different translations. Either way, the book of Job is one enromous parable (well effectivly) and besides that, again this certianly looks like a figure of speech.

Lastly the author quotes Revelation 7:1, need i go any furthur, but for completeness i will include the verse

"After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree."

and i think i will reply by see above.

So is this the detailed sort of answer that was requested. Clearly the author has no idea what he is talking about, or the author is deliberatly trying to mislead people. I would invite other suggestions as to why this article is in there.

Now as i said, maybe I could give some credence to the first argument, but then there are 5 more arguments that simply ignore the type of text they are written in and simply trumpted as proof of the bible teaching a flat earth. At this point i will simply dismiss the first argument as similar to the others, and besides i dont think enough information is given in the text for the first interpretation to hold up, when there are other simpler explanations.

Is this in the detail i was asked for ? Any furthur questions about this. I did read another article titled "The Bible Tells them so" from the same issue, but it simply seemed to contain lots of assertions and no real substance.

Anyway, I hope this suggests that at the very least, i am capable of answering attacks on the bible, and hope it does make my point about the noise/substance ratio that i have complained about previously.

Jason
svensky is offline  
Old 10-29-2001, 12:34 AM   #22
Grand Nubian
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: mich
Posts: 33
Post

Quote:
Originally posted by svensky:
<STRONG>The ones that casue me to doubt the authors honesty, and suggest they are either being intentionally deceptive or stupid



i'm just unwilling to waste time wading through huge slabs of nonsense on the odd chance there is something of value in there.

</STRONG>

Is he talking about the bible or a list about the bible? It's so hard to tell with comments like those.

[ October 29, 2001: Message edited by: Grand Nubian ]
Grand Nubian is offline  
Old 10-29-2001, 01:16 AM   #23
Grand Nubian
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: mich
Posts: 33
Post

GOD CREATES EVIL:

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace,and create evil: I theLord do all these things" (Isa. 45:7).

"Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that good and
evil come?" (Lam. 3:38).

"...that I may repent of the evil, which I purpose to do unto them because of the evil of their doings" (Jer. 26:3).

"...all the evil which I purpose to do unto them;that they may return every man from his evil way; that I may forgive their iniquity and their sin" (Jer. 36:3).

"I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live. And I polluted them in their own gifts...." (Ezek.
20:25-26).

"For thus saith the Lord; as I have brought all this great evil upon this people, so will I bring upon them all the good that I have promised them" (Jer. 32:42).

"...shall there be evil in a city, and the Lord hath
not done it?" (Amos 3:6).

See also: Jer. 11:11, 14:16, 18:11, 19:3,19:15, 23:12, 26:13, 26:19,
35:17, 36:31, 40:2, 42:10, 42:17, 44:2, 45:5, 49:37, 51:64, Ezek. 6:10,
Micah 2:3, 1 Kings21:29, 2 Chron. 34:24, and 2 Chron. 34:28

EVIL COMES FROM THE LORD:

"it came to pass, when the evil spirit from God was upon Saul,that David took an harp, and played with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him" (1 Sam. 16:23).

"it came to pass on the morrow, that the evil spirit from God came upon Saul...." (1 Sam. 18:10).

"the evil spirit from the Lord was upon Saul...." (1 Sam. 19:9).

"Saul's servants said unto him, Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubles thee" (1 Sam. 16:15).

"the spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and an evil spirit
from the Lord troubles him" (1 Sam. 16:14).


"...evil came down from the Lord unto the gate of
Jerusalem" (Micah 1:12).

"Thus saith the Lord, Behold I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbor, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun. For thou did it secretly: but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun" (2 Sam.12:11-12).

"God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem...." (Judges 9:23).

See also: 1 Kings 14:10,2 Kings 21:12, and Isa. 31:2.


HE DECEIVES:

"O Lord, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived...."(Jer. 20:7).

"if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel"
(Ezek. 14:9).

"Ah, Lord God! Surely thou hast greatly deceived this people and Jerusalem, saying, Ye shall have peace; whereas the sword reaches unto the soul"(Jer. 4:10).

"...God sends upon them a strong delusion, to make them believe what is false, so that all may becondemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness" (2 Thess.2:9-12).

See also: 2 Chron. 18:18-22, 1 Kings 22:20-23 and Jer. 15:18.

From bible errancy at Bible Erancy! LOL
Grand Nubian is offline  
Old 10-29-2001, 01:51 AM   #24
svensky
Regular Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Emerald City, Oz
Posts: 130
Post

Grand Nubian, I would ask the obvious question. Which is, and ?

I assume that you mean, God creates evil, and that this is obviously a bad thing. Please just throwing verses around willy nilly does not an argument make.

But assuming this is where your going, i'll have a look at them and see where it goes. I hope you have checked these your self, so that the comment is not out of context. Also i note that there is no mention of which translation each of the verses comes from.

Now i will admit it is entirely possible that bible contains sections that look very ambiguious in english, but are much less so in the original langauage. Seeing as the version is not mentioned, i will go from the NIV and the NASB.

Now i assume you have checked these out a little and they haven't simply been cut and paste from the web page you referenced ?

Jason
svensky is offline  
Old 10-29-2001, 02:07 AM   #25
svensky
Regular Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Emerald City, Oz
Posts: 130
Post

Alright grand nubian,

First up, i notice a plethora of OT quotes and 1 NT quote. Not surprising really, the OT tends to be easier to take out of context.

So i thought i'd check on the NT quote first up. It does say as you noted that the Lord sends a delusion upon them in 2Thessalonians 2:11.

But you have given me a prime example of what i have been saying. Have you read 2 Thess 2 ? At all ?

You claim it as an argument that God deceives people. But read the passage in context. It at least to me seems similar in intent to when God hardened pharohs heart. This also happened, but only after pharoh hardened his own heart several times. The poeple that God sends a delusion on have already rejected him.

Is this what you meant by the passage ? Are you aware of its context ? How it fits into the rest of the bible etc ?

If you read this passage with a little context, you will note a phrase just before it, in the previous verse

"They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved."

which then flows into your quote

"For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie"

Given there is other biblical data of God giving people exactly what they want, i'm not sure what this proves.

At any rate. Should i bother with the rest ? If the first couple turn out to be like this, this then i wont, becasue it takes time and effort to refute and understand each point, and seconds for you to cut and paste verses.

Where is one or a couple of really killer verses that broke no other obvious interpretation. Where is the rapier weilded swiftly and accurately. All i see is a large club that turns out to be rather well padded when used.

Jason
svensky is offline  
Old 10-29-2001, 04:36 AM   #26
Grand Nubian
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: mich
Posts: 33
Post

@Jason(the red herring aka straw man),

"Please just throwing verses around willy nilly does not an argument make."

Nor does assuming everything posted(thrown) in a public forum is an arguement. Are you overly defensive? Are you any degree of defensive? Of course your arent? Or are you? In any

"But assuming this is where your going"

Ahh...very bad practice. You shouldn't assume you have an opponent and then assume your opponents position. That makes it too easy for you. Judging by your positioning you like it to be easy.

"so that the comment is not out of context. Also i note that there is no mention of which translation each of the verses comes from."

Ahh...the "it's out of context" and the "what version" willy nilly.

"Now i will admit it is entirely possible that bible contains sections that look very ambiguious in english,"

Same as above.

"but are much less so in the original langauage. Seeing as the version is not mentioned, i will go from the NIV and the NASB."

Assume you have an opponent. Assume your opponents position. Assume the source of reference. Blame it all on the assumed opponent. How much easier could dealing with me be? BTW...you may go to this place where experts in the lang. can help you translate.

"Now i assume you have checked these out a little and they haven't simply been cut and paste from the web page you referenced?"

Sure why not assume. Why don't you assume that you're right?

"First up, i notice a plethora of OT quotes and 1 NT quote. Not surprising really, the OT tends to be easier to take out of context."

What's not as surprising is that they all are taken out of the bible.

"So i thought i'd check on the NT quote first up. It does say as you noted that the Lord sends a delusion upon them in 2Thessalonians 2:11."

Grand Nubian(assumed opponent) 1
Jason (assumed winner) 0

"But you have given me a prime example of what i have been saying. Have you read 2 Thess 2 ? At all ?"

Hmmm...I might rabbit. I might.

"You claim it as an argument that God deceives people."

I did? HUH? Where? Oh...that's right you are assuming my position. Sorry for interrupting. Go ahead.


"But read the passage in context. It at least to me seems similar in intent to when God hardened pharohs heart."

Context? You are providing explanation not context. You are describing the circumstances surronding the "deception" and not refuting the deception. (psst, you can't refute: just a hint)

"This also happened, but only after pharoh hardened his own heart several times. The poeple that God sends a delusion on have already rejected him."

Well, at least you agree that he sent delusion.
Grand Nubian 2
Jason 0

"Is this what you meant by the passage ?"

I didn't write it so I can't determine it's meaning.

" Are you aware of its context ?"

Didn't you just make me aware? Oh...that's right you explained the circumstances surrounding the delusion. Not the context of the passage.

"How it fits into the rest of the bible etc ?"

In between the covers? Just a guess. I suppose your next arguement will be I'm a smartie pants. Well, momma always said don't fight fire with fire.


Quote:
If you read this passage with a little context, you will note a phrase just before it, in the previous verse
"They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved."

which then flows into your quote

"For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie"

Given there is other biblical data of God giving people exactly what they want, i'm not sure what this proves.
Well, 'it' and 'you' prove that god sent 'them' a delusion.

Grand Nubian 3
Jason 0

"At any rate. Should i bother with the rest ? If the first couple turn out to be like this, this then i wont, becasue it takes time and effort to refute and understand each point, and seconds for you to cut and paste verses."

That's because you aren't versed in the bible about any of these verses. Surely next time you will know what this verse is about. BTW...it takes as much time resonding without refuting as it does to respond and refute.
You haven't refuted. You just responded.

"Where is one or a couple of really killer verses that broke no other obvious interpretation. Where is the rapier weilded swiftly and accurately. All i see is a large club that turns out to be rather well padded when used."

Ahh...the retreat with vague ad hominem. I love it.

Grand Nubian 4 (bonus point for recieving ad hominem)
Jason -1 (penalty for non refutation of opponents arguement that he assumed and created perfectly for himself)

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Grand Nubian 0 (kicked out of arena for use of rapier in a swift and accurate manner)

Jason -1 (wins by default; flies away in staw man mobile)

[ October 29, 2001: Message edited by: Grand Nubian ]
Grand Nubian is offline  
Old 10-29-2001, 05:41 AM   #27
svensky
Regular Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Emerald City, Oz
Posts: 130
Post

If you get near a point make it.

Jason
svensky is offline  
Old 10-29-2001, 06:15 AM   #28
Doubting Thomas
Regular Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 290
Cool

Before you ask us for a context, perhaps Christianity needs to define one and follow it.

One quick example which relates to women as pastors:

1 Corinthians 14:24, “Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law” and; 1 Timothy 2:12, “But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.”

Now many denominations forbid women to be pastors based on those verses. Yet many other denominations (or sects within the same denomination) affirm that women can preach. The Southern Baptists forbid women to preach based on the above, yet Billy Graham's own daughter preaches regardless and bases her ministry on the following Biblical passage: John 20:1-8, “But go to my brothers and say to them, `I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'" Mary Magdalene went and announced to the disciples…”

Mrs. Lotz defends her ministry based on the notion that Christ commanded Mary Magdelene to spread the "Good News". Here we have an example of people from the same denomination that have trouble interpreting the same Bible.

If that isn't a contradiction I don't know what is!

-T

[ October 29, 2001: Message edited by: Doubting Thomas ]
Doubting Thomas is offline  
Old 10-29-2001, 08:18 AM   #29
Echo
Regular Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Winter Park, Fl USA
Posts: 411
Post

Svensky,

I'd like to make two points about the Pharaoh story.

1) You are going to run into a stumbling block by harping on "context". Whose context? When I read the Pharaoh story it seems crystal clear that God deliberately hardens Pharaoh's heart so that he *could not* let the Israelites go, and that God deliberately did this because he wanted to punish the Egyptian people, and Pharoah was the convenient instrument of his wrath. Paul echoes this in Romans 9 when he says that God is perfectly entitled to create some people for the purpose of providing vessels through which he can impart his wrath upon the world.

2) I don't see this as being a simple contradiction so much as a glaring inconsistency between the attributes assigned to God and descriptions of God's actual behavior. We are told that God is perfectly loving, perfectly good, perfectly benevolent, does not lie, is not the author of confusion, and value's man's free will. And then we are asked to believe a story in which this same God is described as desiring that people be harmed (and not just Pharaoh, but the average Egyptian citizens and their children) and then deliberately hardening someone's heart (whether it was hard to begin with and he just hardened it a little more is irrelevent) in order to facilitate the desired end of bringing harm to those people.

[ October 29, 2001: Message edited by: Echo ]
Echo is offline  
Old 10-29-2001, 08:39 AM   #30
Grand Nubian
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: mich
Posts: 33
Post

He is a moron. Point made and proven by his own words.

He cannot refute my three claims:

God creates evil
God decieves
Evil comes from god

Basically, L_O_S_E_R.

Hey, hey, jason...when you get near a bible read it!

Until then relying on ad hominems, red herrings, and straw man reasonings will make you light work.
Grand Nubian is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 12:25 PM.

Top

This custom BB emulates vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.