The parts I've taken out I do not disagree with, but took them out to save space. Bascially I would just like to say, Brovo PG!!!!! Good going!!! I applaude your view point, your courage in saying it,and bascially don't disagree with any of it. Someof my best freinds are atheits and there is no reason why Christains and atheists can't be good freinds and have wondeful pleasant discussions. I think a lot of people are just hurting because of their experinces with Christians, or with chruches, and they want to let loose hostility.

I applaude your views and your attitude! Ok you restore the positive meaning to the term "free thinker"

BTW none of you I will bet realize that "free thinking" beban with Christians in the English enlightenment? It did. It's my dissertation topic, the English enlightenment that is.

[quote]<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Cute Little Baby:
Michael Wormwood:

I honestly don't know if your half blind or just plain stupid, but you might want to save yourself some embarrasment and go for the former. You so greatly take out of context or flat out miss the blatantly obvious point I was saying that its just...well, it does not speak well of you.

Quote:

Baby: as a whole, gangs are much more prone to violence. Its the same with Christians Exactly how are Christians “prone” to violence? If I remember correctly most of the United States identifies themselves as “Christian” – yet I doubt you’d go so far as to call the U.S. a big ‘ol mob of violent thugs.</font>

You didn't read on or else you were too much of an idiot (how CHRISTIAN of you!) to understand what I was saying. "The same with Christians", I go on to describe how they are more prone to ignorant, arrogant actions than society as a whole. "The same With Christians" implied that the stereotypes of gangs and Christians as being more likely to commit the negative actions pinned on them, is well grounded in fact.

Meta =&gt; That seems to be what he's disagreeing with.

Quote:

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Baby: There are quite a lot more "stupid" (ignorant would be a better term) arrogant Christians than stupid, arrogant religiousless or even non-Christians.

Sure: the very definition and teachings of Christianity. Christians by definition believe the stories of the NT to be true, including the supernatural stories. Since these stories are all outrageous, ridiculous, and unsubstantiated, one must be very ignorant to believe in them.


Meta =&gt; That's just circular reasoning. You assume the stoires in the NT are not true because they violate your ideology of the world. Than to prove that they are untrue you point out how they conflict with your ideology of the world. In point of fact, you have no idea as to their truth content or not. You are merely impossing a false standard based upon prejudice. Morover, not all Christians do believe that such things really happened. That is just trying to define the whole group by the outlook of ceratian sements.

Christians are arrogant because they believe all other philosophies are wrong and their adherents will go to Hell just for believing in Christianity.


Meta =&gt; NO we don't! that's just ignorance. I don't believe that.


This, in turn, mandates that the Christians are right above and beyond everyone else (and they will go to Heaven), to the point of being "divinely" right. This is one of, if not the, closest thing to a pure incarnation of arrogance that one could ever define.


Meta =&gt; How long have you had these feelings of insecurity that seem to be masked by your hositilty?


It is stupid to believe in Christianity, and Christianity is an arrogant philosophy, therefore: it is a haven for stupid actions and arrogant thinking.

Meta =&gt; tisk tisk, you obvioulsy have a need to feel supirior to others because you actually feel inferior to them.

Yea that Issac Newton what a dummie! O that Albert Schweitzer, almost illiterate! and that T.S. Elliot, why didn't he learn something about literature!

Are most Jews obsessed with cash? Are large percentages of them coming up to you and asking you to donate to their bank? Of course not. Therefore: the stereotypical Jew is a ridiculous stereotype.
Do most atheists here shout out Maralyn Manson lyrics? Do most atheists you see rant and rave about how great it is to wear all black clothing and go to raves? Hardly.
Do most Christians here take an irrational view to support their belief? Are most Christians here trying to propogate their belief? YES.


Meta =&gt; But you are trying to propogate your beliefs. You are trying to impose your view on others, you are the one who made the post saying that Chrsitains are so bad and stupid, so therefore, you must be impossing your views since you defing impossing as trying to convence others that you are right. So that must make you just as bad. As for Chrsitan bleiefs being silly ect. Apparently, you don't know enough about them to even say that. Your only reason for saying, so it seems, is merely that it violates your world view, so that's another form of impossing your views.

Now do you see the difference?


Meta =&gt; Um not reall. All you really said there is "I dont' believe those prejudices so they are stupid, but the prejudices I do believe are true."

All you are doing is acting foolish and talking shit about my philosophy. Your only "evidence" to support your assertions are quotes taken out of context or who's points are so clear, yet so missed by you that one wonders why you aren't off playing with your building blocks and rattles instead of trying to master the art of going on the net and making a single bit of sense in what your typing.


Meta =&gt; All you are saying there is "He who disagrees with me is an asshole."


And this means what to me? As most of your personal friends will tell you; believing in Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy is not a ridiculous worldview to those who accept it.
As reason will tell you: that does not make the worldview any less ridiculous.

Meta =&gt; But no one does accept it beyond the age of 6. However, 90% of people in the world are believers in some form of God. So all you are really saying is "I'm the only one who knows anything." Have you always tried to overcome feelings of inferiority through hositilty and arrogance?


Again your too blind or idiotic to see the point: tolerance is not mandated from an intellectual standpoint. You got that? As in debates, arguments about facts, reason, learning environments which discuss various subjects, and that type of thing: from such a perspective, Christianity does not even count as a reasonable worldview and therefore should be ignored. But freedom of speech and religion in society, general human rights and such, are by no means to be ignored.


Meta =&gt; ahahahhhaha, God am I glad you weren't running the enlightenment! Even Voltiare understood more about religion that that! That is the most absurd bs I've ever heard. Your igornace is appauling! Christians invented free thinking, modern science, democracy, the nature of modern philsophy and contributed heavily to literature, the lions' share of great thinkers in the West were Christains while only a tiny handfull actually called themselves atheist. Even Olvier Cromwell allowed freedom of consciousence, The basic concept of human rights in civil society came from Christians. Grow up!


[quote]<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Baby: Christianity is a very dangerous philosophy which has done irrepairable damage to the world


Meta =&gt; No historian I've ever worked with or talked thinks that. Put up or shut up. Put it on this board, come to my board, or do it on another board here, but I want to debate you on this. If christanity is so stupid you should have no problem winning a 1x1 debate with me. I'll even make a speicial board for it if you come debate me on my boards. What do you say?


Meta =&gt; AAAAA, you told him about the special satelite! You know we aren't suppossed to metion that, don't you go the meetings?


~shrugs~None of this holds a candle to your atrocities and potential for danger. You atribute positive actions to Christianity, yet fail to recognize the neutral or negative side:


Meta =&gt; Read some history,and actually think about it for a change.

Compared to your 2,000 year crusade against womens rights and the countless conservative Christians who oppose so many social aid programs, and support letting corperations run free and wild and opress all the people they want.


Meta =&gt; That is just a big stupid fantasy. Christians were the first woman's sufferage group in america, and the first rights women got in writing in the Roman empire came from Christianity as well.


Compared to the infanticide, and wholesale genocide of every single non-Christian or Christian who didn't agree with you that your Chrisitan forebearers could get their hands on.

Meta =&gt; O really? Gee it seems that I have quite a few non-Chrisitian freinds who weren't murdered as infants, how did they miss that? Kindly document that and try to show when exactly there was ever a genocide against non-Christians speicifidally, and while you are at it explian 50 million deaths under atheist regeme in China, and 20 mil under atheists in USSR? And don't try to hedge the issue by saying Stalin doesn't represesent atheism, I was a communist I know what I'm talking about.

Compared to the countless Christians who came over here and ignored the rights of the indians by slaughtering them all.

Meta =&gt; totally ignoring the Christian missionaries such as Samuel Dutton Hinman who stopped slaughter of the Native Americans.

Most of which would still be there had you not build them, and which are insignificant when Compared to the millions who have died of disease and medical ignorance over the 1,000+ years that Christianity supressed medical science.

Meta =&gt; How would they be there if Christians hadn't have invented them? And what makes you think you can blame Chrsitanity for disease? As for science, Christians invented modern science. Every major name in the rise of Science from Capernicus to the founding of the Royal Socieity were Christians.


Compared to the embracement of slavery by the great percentage of all of Christendom's history.

Meta =&gt; Documentation! The undergrond railroad was a Christian project, the Quackers were working against slavery before the America revolution, and the first abolition group in the US was ran by Christians, who just happned to be the same methodist women led by Phebe Palmer who started the first woman's sufferage group.

Compared to the establishment of the Ku Klux Klan by Nathan Bedford Forrest.


Meta =&gt; KKK killed Christains they weren't Christians.


Compared to the witch burnings done in the past and the murder of homosexuals that your beloved Christians do.


Meta =&gt; Economic factors led to witch trials, pagans had witch trials in england before Chrisinaity came there, and given all of Europe over 1000 year period the numbers overall are very low. Just 50,000, almost the same as Americans who died in Vietnam. vietnam was one conflict over a 15 year period (American involvement) but this is for all of Euopre over a 1000 year period.

Compared to the Aryan Nations and Ku Klux Klan who's members and leaders are mostly Christian/

Meta =&gt; Prove that they are Christians.


Compared to all the ilegitimate, homeless children that are born because Christians crusaded against the "evils" of abortion.


Meta =&gt; O BS prove that one single child is homeless because Christias didn't let that child be murdered! There are orphanages you know, and backlogs of waiting lists.

[

You know it's hard to argue angrily with someone named Cute Little Baby. I wasn't aware that a coherent well-stated issue was put forth. I thought this was a rant thread.

You've come across statistics that show that Christians are more self-righteous and arrogant? The human brain is a haven for stupid actions and arrogant thinking.

I will accept that increased education is correlated with decreased religious belief as well as decreased stupidity. I think this speaks for the value of education and for the nonvalidity of religion, but this is not sufficient information for declaring all Christians as self-righteous arrogant assholes that deserve physical abuse.

[quote]<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
I think one of those faults would be not being able to recognize that believing in something as stupid as supernatural beings is a fault of the brain. [\QUOTE]
Aren't you aware that belief in the supernatural has been one of the most common and pervasive beliefs of all cultures through all times? Simply dismissing these beliefs as stupid without trying to understand why they are believed is missing a fundamental insight into the human brain.

As was I. And I knew enough of them to see that they are simply people like the rest of us. The differences in behavior, though, between Christians and nonChristians is virtually nonexistent, which I take as further evidence of the nonexistence of supernatural forces in Christian's lives. They think they've got the big questions figured out and they look down at others who disagree with them. Atheists think they've got the big questions figured out and look down on those that disagree with them. If you want to find a significant difference between atheists and Christians, simply point out that we atheists are right and the Christians are wrong.

I think you have a fairly simplistic view of the world and humanity. I think if you delved into psychology, sociology, economics, and history, you would discover that humans make decisions based on basic desires for status, food, sex, and so on and the higher-level brain processes simply act to justify these desires and make long-term plans to satisfy them. Political leaders will use any tools at their disposal and the church has been one of them. Below professions of faith or nonfaith are basic human needs and desires that drive the actions of humans and the forces of society and history, and the comings and goings of religions is more of a sideshow.

There are various flavors of Christianity and some are quite sophisticated. Perhaps you should read some of the Christian philosophers just to get a better appreciation for the intelligence and thoughtfulness of some Christians.

The Christians whom I know are not ridiculous, dangerous, and useless, and most everything they believe is true. If you wish to attack Christian belief, that is one thing. But you and others were attacking Christians as people, and it is mainly the people I defend, with a little bit of defense left over for Christianity itself.

I think you are placing far too much emphasis on the statements of belief on religious issues made by people. There is so much more going on in our brains and I would claim that 99.9% of our beliefs and desires are virtually identical. We believe that trees exist, the bee stings hurt, that caring for children is good, that food is good, that shelter is good, that learning is good, etc.

I don't think Christianity is overall a good thing. I just don't think it is as bad as it is commonly made out to be. I also think that many ex-Christians understandably are angry about the guilt they were made to feel and the difficulty of breaking away and are left with an overblown dislike of Christians. And though I went to fairly fundamentalist church, I never heard any fire and brimstone brainwashing. That is pretty sick stuff and I'm sorry if you had to be a part of it.

We should prevent Christians from making changes to society that we feel are detrimental, such as pushing creationism and preventing the teaching of evolution. I hope to play a role in this and hope to do further work influencing society for good, and part of this will be in convincing Christians that they are mistaken about fundamental issues of science. Regardless, I understand that Christians have good intentions, and are doing what they think is best and true. I intend to convince them that they are mistaken. The point I am trying to make is that Christians are people like the rest of us, acting out of both good and bad intentions.

Yes, watch out world. PhysicsGuy is on a rampage.

Ouch. Does this mean we won't be exchanging Christmas cards?

You make my point. People are people regardless of their beliefs. It's not about poor 'wittle' Christian feelings, I have defended atheists far more than I've defended Christians. I thought these posts went over the edge so I responded. You've expressed yourself. I've expressed myself. Let's leave at that.

I agree. I was hoping to simply counteract some of the hate for Christians on this thread by indicating that we all are confused about many fundamental issues of life. I agree Christianity is false and I would be overjoyed if Christians everywhere admitted they were wrong. Until my fantasy comes true, I will try to maintain a strained yet productive relationship with Christians in order to help them understand the confusions in their thinking.


I don't doubt the sincerity of your beliefs and opinions. I also don't doubt that your experiences have influenced your attitude. My opinions and experiences are different so I wished to express my thoughts as well.

So help me figure out how to convince them they are wrong. Persecuting them only makes things worse. In your case, I would advise ignoring them altogether, but I suppose you are not interested in my advice.

We end on a relatively good note. I agree wholeheartedly with your statement. I will continue on my journey in helping to get this guest to leave, and I wish you the best on yours.


Imagine your response to someone with that claim today...[/b][/QUOTE]



[This message has been edited by PhysicsGuy (edited April 20, 2001).]

Hey, watch it. They're going to start calling me fundie-lover or something.

Well said, yourself.

Now let's not go overboard. I'll still whup your ass in any debate over science and I intend to make you an atheist before I'm done on this board.

I've also encountered ignorant skeptics who don't realize that asserting a universal negative directly is illogical & are unaware of better formulations of atheism. I just don't think that proves anything, nor am I sure you're trying to say that... :] My only wonderment is how you can really believe in what other people don't know? I mean, you can just not believe, of course, but I guess I never understood that "militant agnostic" bumper sticker :] It seems to utterly ruin the entire point of reformulating one's beliefs to agnostic & going right back to asserting unknowable things... *sigh* :]

Yeah, but look on the bright side--they'll only validate some of your points :] Besides, who said we were 'fundies'? :] I think that's overly simplistic, not to mention misleading... I mean, I'm not sure how many of us take Genesis as literal history [I mean Christians on these boards, I can pretty safely assume it as 0 for skeptics]? Still, you're one of the most reasonable sounding people around here... maybe you can teach them what we can't? Granted, we Christians may not know everything, but it doesn't take omnicience to know there is a God... :] I mean, would you disbelieve the experiments of QM because someone claimed that they're "illogical because the violate the law of the excluded middle"? :] I doubt it.

Metacrock,

All your talk of the different sects of Christianity, and the arguments you have had with other Christians, just adds further weight to the argument against Christianity because of its incoherence (if it was "divine" it would not be so hopelessly incoherent).

Oh, that settles it. NOT.
Most white supremacists are Bible embracing, and in fact have created a whole religion based upon it (Christian Identity).

And Jesus also said to follow the law (of moses), which means those who do not aren't "true" Christians. He also said not to ever make plans and be concerned over something that is going to happen a day (or more) after you. He made many teachings, all of which most all Christians do not follow in some form or another.

Teaching somebody from birth that they are to submit to the will of the Church, that doing so is the only right thing to do in ones life, that any and all other philosophies are evil and wrong, that all who do not do this will be tortured forever and in fact deserve such a thing, is NOT brainwashing?

Nor can you explain what relevance this has to proving the Christian version of God.

So the Ten Commandments are not important anymore? Wow. How much contrary to the teachings of the BIble can you get?

No, I assume they are not true because they are factually unsubstantiated and generally unintelligent, and because the NT is far too riddle with flaws and absurdities to be taken seriously as some "divine" text.

See above.
I am "prejuidice" in favor of facts and reason, and against nonsensical superstitions and unsubstantiated fairy tales. How is this bad?

Not all Christians believe the stories about Christ are true? Interesting...
Then you do not believe the teachings of your own Bible.
How does my post indicate anything like that? What are you talking about? Why are you not adressing the issue?
Demonize the opponent instead of defeating him. The age old Christian tactic. It won't work here. Please adress the issue brought up instead of trying to weasel out of it.
None of these people were intelligent because of Christianity, but in spite of it. Furthermore I never asserted that all Christians are idiots, just that Christianity itself is a haven for idiocy and idiotic thinking. Thats why they have been the enemy of intelligence for so long.
I do not seek to force my beliefs on others save for my belief that Christians should not be allowed to force their views on others. My belief that Christianity is idiotic is no more unjusfitied than my belief that the Easter Bunny is an idiotic concept. Both are unintelligent and unsubstantiated, the only difference is that Christianity is the Western World's ultimate naked emperor.
What other "prejuidices" are you going to critisize? Lack of belief in the Tooth Fairy? Claiming the Greek Gods really were fictitious? Refusal to believe that Voodoo magic can create zombies?
No, your twisting my words. I dissagree with tons of people on this board, but I do not speak ill of them because of it. However, when somebody agrees that what is unintelligent and unsubstantiated (like the doctrine of Christianity) is somehow not idiotic, I do indeed critisize them. You would do the same thing to people who believe in the Easter Bunny. Is that "unfair"?

You want to prove an extraordinary claim. The burden of proof is on you. Can you prove it? No. Then your extraordinary claim is idiotic.
Everyone beyond the age of 6 ought to be familiar with how ridiculous appeals to authority are. In this case, you apparently are not aware of this fact. You even toss in irelevant stuff: most people believe in God, so what? I am speaking specifically of the Christian God, which is a ridiculous concept. Just because millions of people do not wish to face this fact does not make their belief any less ridiculous.
Well, thats easily one of the stupidest statements I have ever heard in my life. You have offered absolutely no substantiation at all for any of your claims, so until you do, get lost.
You ought to change your user name to "Spammer4Christ". No, I am not going to come to your board. Given that your apparently a very well educated person, that such people are rare in Christianity, and that even you are quite a foolish person, I shudder to even contemplate the amount of idiocy I would be bombarded with by all your other Christian contemporaries at your board.
Given that even you cannot be reasoned with, I do not want to drive myself insane trying to get the rest of the idiots over there to think. I've tried, and it almost never works. For the most part, Christians are brainwashed individuals who just will not think, no matter what. I am not going to bend over backwards vainly trying to get them to do otherwise.
Anyway,historians have shown that Christianity is a dangerous worldview. If you dissagree, perhaps you could explain why virtually every instance of Christianity being in charge of the government has led to horrible abuses of those who oppose, or are even merely suspected to oppose, Christianity. Perhaps you could explain why the world has generally gotten better the more Christianity's grip on it has weakened.
Many of who's enemies were also Christians, and compared to the countless Christians who oppose womens rights even to this day.
Compared to the Muslim nations which were far more kind to women during the 1,000+ year reign of Christianity over Western Europe.
They missed it because they were lucky enough to be born in this century, as opposed to all the others in wich Christians were slaughtering everyone from the American Indians to advocates of a heliocentric solar system to other Christians who they deemed as "not true Christians".
The 1,000+ year reign of Christianity over Western Europe, during which many many non-Christians were killed, the spanish inquisition, and the Crusades. Let us not forget the genocide against the indigenous populations of the Americas, Africa and Australasia that happened at the hand of Christians. Oh, almost forgot about the Witch trials of Salem, and the Christian KKK.
Where is your substantiation for this?
They did not commit their atrocities because of atheism. If they killed all who were not atheists, most Communist nations would be a desolate wasteland with less people in them than a Joan Rivers concert. Communism itself is a Christian teaching and has been condoned and even supported by Christians (There was a Bishop someplace in Latin America who was a Communist, though I cannot recall his name at the present time).
Oh they did, did they? Is that why the vast majority of the Native Americans were slaughtered anyway?
ROTFLMAO! "Invented" modern science? Thats funny, seeing as how Christianity "coincidentally" flourished right after it lost its grip on humanity, how scientific thought "coincidentally" was much more prevelant in non-Christian countries when Christianity was ruling over Western Europe and how "coincidentally" virtually every anti-science movement, from Flat Earthers to the Tychonian Society to Biblical Creationism, is replete with Christians and Bible verses to "support" their ideas.
Compared to the Christian KKK, the Christian slave-supporting south, the Catholic Church's recent confession and apology for supporting slavery, the greater the embracement of slavery the more Christianity was embraced, and the Bible verses which are pro-slavery.
Is that why their symol is a glorified burning cross? Is that why they were so discriminatory against Catholics ("slaves" to the Pope)?
As did Christian doctrine.
All the more reason to consider religion in general as just a dangerous plague of idiocy.
Given the much lower population, the pergentage of people skyrockets, and thus we see that, compared to the society that was being lived in, Christianity killed a whole shit load of people.
~shrugs~Its a well known fact among those who research hate groups. That you are too ignorant or lazy to discover it is not my fault.
Should we also discuss the women who are raped, the children born to a life of being crippled and the countries which are replete with starving people, all because Christianity preached against abortions, and against birth control in general (birth control means people are having sex, and Christianity has historically hated sex above most all things)