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Old 02-17-2001, 07:39 AM   #1
firebreather
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Post the devil

I was just thinking about this a while ago. I don't think it is any great argument, but I was just curious...

The devil is the enemy of God. He rules over hell. If God/Jesus decides who goes to heaven or hell, what incentive does Satan have to punish those who are damned. It seems silly to me that this Lucifer, who's crime was to rebel against God (or at least that's what I remember) is now in a sense working for God. I see how it can be reconciled that he hopes to spread evil on earth, but I can't see why he would want to punish those sent to hell.

I hope that made sense, pardon my bible ignorance.

David
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Old 02-17-2001, 06:07 PM   #2
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I've been told that Satan is also being tortured in hell, and it's more hell's environment that does the punishing (flames/darkness/worms) then Satan and Co. When an Atheist is giving pointers on theology, the Theists should be a little abashed, I think.


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Old 02-17-2001, 06:31 PM   #3
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To the Fundies, the Devil seems to be a sort of "Evil God", doesn't he?
 
Old 02-18-2001, 08:39 AM   #4
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Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by lpetrich:
To the Fundies, the Devil seems to be a sort of "Evil God", doesn't he?</font>
In 2nd Corinthians 4:4, the Devil is actually referred to as the "God of this world."

In the story of the temptation of Jesus in Matthew 4:8-9, "Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; 9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me."

In order for this to have been a credible temptation, the Devil would have to have been perceived as quite powerful indeed.
 
Old 02-18-2001, 09:46 AM   #5
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No, the Devil and his cohorts are the Washington Wizards of the Bible. When they are mentioned (not often) it's only to mention how they lost. Is there any verses that mention Satan/Demons performing torture in Hell? I can't think of any. The Devil, along with humanity, are GOD's toilet paper throughout the "good" book.

Fundamentalists? They don't really have any proper theology, just a lot of sloppy emotion and superstition.

How come no theists ever want to talk doctrine? Is there a corrolation to knowing more about the Bible/Theology and becoming an Atheist? Could be.

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Old 02-18-2001, 12:37 PM   #6
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Here's an analogy to explain what hell will be like.

God is like a source of light similar to the sun. Only he isn't just the source light and warmth and what is necessary for life, he also is the source of goodness and love.

If there is no light source you have no light. If there is no 'good' or 'love' source there is no goodness or love. Hell is hell because it is void of God.

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Old 02-18-2001, 01:33 PM   #7
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Satan is NEVER a proper name in the Hebrew Bible. He is ha'satan which just means "the adversary," and in the Hebrew Bible, he actually works for Yahweh. He is Yahweh's prosecuting attorney and accuses Israel in the heavenly court. Israel's defense attorney is "the angel of Yahweh" (Gabriel).

Satanic theology evolved apparently after the Babylonian (and subsequent Persian) capitivity because their religions have a cosmic battle between two forces of good and evil.

But just reading the Hebrew Bible, you would never know that Satan was a bad guy. The serpent in Genesis is only positively identified as Satan in the book Revelation. And even if the serpent was Satan, what's wrong with setting a trap for Adam and Eve or Job or humanity in general? Don't police officers do that all the time in order to convict people--pose as prostitutes in order to trap johns into asking for sex? Perhaps people realize that this kind of entrapment is evil and that's why Satan evolved into a bad guy (tell that to the police and D.A.!).

 
Old 02-24-2001, 01:35 AM   #8
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Hell is hell because it is void of God.</font>
How can this be if God is omnipresent? Hmmmmm... I smell fresh BS somewhere.
 
Old 02-24-2001, 02:03 PM   #9
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Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by firebreather:
The devil is the enemy of God. He rules over hell. If God/Jesus decides who goes to heaven or hell, what incentive does Satan have to punish those who are damned. It seems silly to me that this Lucifer, who's crime was to rebel against God (or at least that's what I remember) is now in a sense working for God. I see how it can be reconciled that he hopes to spread evil on earth, but I can't see why he would want to punish those sent to hell.
</font>
The idea of the Devil ruling over hell and him and his other devil friends gleefully torturing the condemned souls with fire is a remanent of medieval theology which seems to have survived into the modern era.
Revelation actually makes it quite clear that the Devil and his angels will be thrown into the fires of hell. They will receive punishment - they don't rule hell.

The first appearence of Satan is as a serpent in the Garden of Eden where he encourages Eve to rebel against God. Later in Job, Satan is depicted as "the adversary" and is one of God's angels who seems to have a great desire to inflict suffering on Job. Jesus we are told in the Gospels was tempted by the Devil who offered to make him powerful if he agreed to serve the Devil rather than God.
Revelation finally makes it all clear. It says the Serpent and the adversary and the Devil and Satan are all the same being. Apparently Satan had rebelled against God and is causing havoc in the world. Revelation says that at the time of judgement God will condemn Satan and the angels and people who followed him and throw them into hell.

Hell is a different matter all together. Epitome has suggested what tends to be the accepted view of Hell which says that Hell is a place where God's goodness and love aren't (This doesn't necessarily mean that God isn't there, so it's not contrary to His omniscience).
I supose I agree with that, though it is not really important except out of interest. The Bible doesn't detail how Hell works, only that it is a bad place and going there is bad. (Granted Hell is always associated with fire, but is that literal or metaphorical?)
 
Old 02-24-2001, 03:56 PM   #10
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Most Christians' demonology and satanology comes from the Pseudopigrapha whether they know it or not. In it is the traditions about Satan as the musician who fell from heaven because of pride, wanting to take God's place. Thank God, no one suggested that stuff on this thread.

Little is known about him through the Bible except what has already been presented. In Jewish thinking, both good and evil are merely pawns of God that He uses to bring about good in the end. They are very adamant against making the devil and God dualities that are at war. However, the NT uses the language of the Zoroastrians to describe God's final judgment of the devil. How is this justified? By the concepts of what it means for man and woman to be resident vassal-lords of creation under the Suzerain God, in Genesis (Kline, Treaty of the Great King). The usurping of authority by the serpent has very close connections linguistically to a vassal who is conquered and the suzerainís responsibility to restore his vassal as regent king. Dr. Jeffrey Niehaus outlines this in his book "God at Sinai" in which he looks at the patterns of covenant and theophany in the Bible and ancient Near East.


[This message has been edited by Josephus (edited February 24, 2001).]
 
 

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