FRDB Archives

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.


Go Back   FRDB Archives > Archives > Biblical Criticism - 2001
Welcome, Peter Kirby.
You last visited: Today at 05:55 AM

Notices

 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 03-06-2001, 12:21 AM   #1
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Post Faithless vegetarians?

Can someone explain this to me please?

Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">from Romans 14:2
...but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables.</font>
Why would they think that, based on what someone eats? Would there have been any reason that they would have wanted to discourage vegetarianism in those days, by making people think it would give them a faithless appearance? Is it some kind of biblical commercial, like The Other White Meat?

And is there any evidence to support the assertions that Jesus was a vegetarian?

Thank you!

[This message has been edited by oriecat (edited March 06, 2001).]
 
Old 03-06-2001, 01:41 AM   #2
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Post

Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by oriecat:
Can someone explain this to me please?

Quote:
from Romans 14:2
...but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables.</font>
Why would they think that, based on what someone eats? Would there have been any reason that they would have wanted to discourage vegetarianism in those days, by making people think it would give them a faithless appearance? Is it some kind of biblical commercial, like The Other White Meat?

And is there any evidence to support the assertions that Jesus was a vegetarian?

Thank you!

[This message has been edited by oriecat (edited March 06, 2001).]
Jesus ate fish. (John 21) Or at least He prepared fish for His disciples.

The "vegetarians" you speak of had weak faith because they would consider eating meat to be a sin, I take it. Paul taught that with the death of Jesus, the Law was no longer in effect for the believer. (which condemned the eating of non-kosher food for Jews) Also meat-eating was commonly done in sacrifice in honor of various gods then. The man of weak faith would assume that to have a real value against meat: the person who understood such rituals had nothing to do with the goodness of meat itself could eat meat with a clear conscience. People that ate only vegetables felt meat-eating to be a sin, in connection with idol-worship. Therefore, not eating meat was to be the right thing for them to do, in obedience to their conscience. Paul actually instructs the Romans to respect the person with "weak faith" and not cause them offence by leading them into what they would consider sin. For if one considers something sin, it is a sin for that person, and therefore is an actual sin simply for going against ones own conscience. Such a person has a weak faith, like the person condemns dancing or the like. But if a person considers such an activity a sin, he is morally obligated to avoid doing it even if it can be properly seen for a person with "strong" faith that such actions are not sin.
 
Old 03-06-2001, 12:55 PM   #3
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Post

I hope this is not OT...

a_theist... you said
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Paul taught that with the death of Jesus, the Law was no longer in effect for the believer.</font>
I have heard this before, but I have some perosnal problems with the concept.

In the OT it says repeatedly that the law is eternal, and that any prophet who preaches against any part of the law is a flase prophet.

Jesus' teachings, for the most part, seem to be in line with the OT. But there are several which are not. And then, there are the 'non-red' passages.

My question is would you (personally or official word of the Church, prefferably both) justify this?

I would like to avoid the 'Jesus was God and God can change his mind!' arguement, because God/Yahweh is the one who said the Law would last longer than the Earth.

Thanks.


 
Old 03-06-2001, 04:48 PM   #4
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Post

This is something you have to look at from the Alien coming to earth test: Alien lands. Reads ONLY the OT. Does the Alien know about Jesus, Christianity, etc. from reading only the OT.

YES ?? or NO????
 
Old 03-06-2001, 11:30 PM   #5
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Post

Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Teutonic:
This is something you have to look at from the Alien coming to earth test: Alien lands. Reads ONLY the OT. Does the Alien know about Jesus, Christianity, etc. from reading only the OT.

YES ?? or NO????
</font>
Have you ever read the novel, "My Father was a Jewish Alien?" by R. Ben Yoda?
 
Old 03-06-2001, 11:52 PM   #6
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Post

Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by jess:
I hope this is not OT...

a_theist... you said
Quote:
Paul taught that with the death of Jesus, the Law was no longer in effect for the believer.</font>
I have heard this before, but I have some perosnal problems with the concept.

In the OT it says repeatedly that the law is eternal, and that any prophet who preaches against any part of the law is a flase prophet.
I have read that the word "eternal" is actually misleading in translation, but the Hebrew word actually means "an uncounted or undefined period of time"- presumably a long time. I am not a Hebrew scholar and am not sure of the truth of this, but if true it certainly cures much of the problem. I don't know where the Bible says anyone that preaches against any part of the Law is a false prophet. The warnings of false prophets passage in the Torah is in Deuteronomy 18:20:"But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the names of other gods, must be put to death."

God told Ezekiel to eat food roasted over human dung, which was an act of eating defiled food(against the Law), to prove a prophetic point about Israel eating defiled food in exile.

*I will get to the rest of your post later. Just first: what verse do you refer to in the "Law lasting longer than earth" part?
 
Old 03-07-2001, 12:40 PM   #7
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Red face

a_theist:

First, I would like to apologize to you. I have been sick since before New Year's, which is one of the reasons I have been able to log on so often.

However, I am now 'healthy'/ier (only 3 meds right now... ), and as such must earn my keep again.

I really want to know what you think, but it will take me a little time to respond with decent arguements.

Question on what you wrote, though--- "Deuteronomy 18:20:"But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the names of other gods, must be put to death."
Wouldn't this have applied to Jesus?

Let me get back to you on the verses... unless you might be able to find them for me?

jess
 
Old 03-07-2001, 01:56 PM   #8
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Smile

Some verses... all deut. (unless said otherwise)
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">5:28
The LORD heard you when you spoke to me and the LORD said to me, "I have heard what this people said to you. Everything they said was good.
29
Oh, that their hearts would be inclined to fear me and keep all my commands always, so that it might go well with them and their children forever!

6:20
In the future, when your son asks you, "What is the meaning of the stipulations, decrees and laws the LORD our God has commanded you?"
21
tell him: "We were slaves of Pharaoh in Egypt, but the LORD brought us out of Egypt with a mighty hand.
22
Before our eyes the LORD sent miraculous signs and wonders--great and terrible--upon Egypt and Pharaoh and his whole household.
23
But he brought us out from there to bring us in and give us the land that he promised on oath to our forefathers.
24
The LORD commanded us to obey all these decrees and to fear the LORD our God, so that we might always prosper and be kept alive, as is the case today.
25
And if we are careful to obey all this law before the LORD our God, as he has commanded us, that will be our righteousness."


7:9
Know therefore that the LORD your God is God; he is the faithful God, keeping his covenant of love to a thousand generations of those who love him and keep his commands.


11:1
Love the LORD your God and keep his requirements, his decrees, his laws and his commands always.

20
Write them on the doorframes of your houses and on your gates,
21
so that your days and the days of your children may be many in the land that the LORD swore to give your forefathers, as many as the days that the heavens are above the earth.


12:32
See that you do all I command you; do not add to it or take away from it.
</font>
Some quotes that support the 'false prophet' thingie, and that Jesus broke the law... (or at least early Chrsitians did, and all modern Christians do).

Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
Jeremiah 23:30
"Therefore," declares the LORD, "I am against the prophets who steal from one another words supposedly from me.
31
Yes," declares the LORD, "I am against the prophets who wag their own tongues and yet declare, `The LORD declares.'
32
Indeed, I am against those who prophesy false dreams," declares the LORD. "They tell them and lead my people astray with their reckless lies, yet I did not send or appoint them. They do not benefit these people in the least," declares the LORD.
33
"When these people, or a prophet or a priest, ask you, `What is the oracle of the LORD?' say to them, `What oracle? I will forsake you, declares the LORD.'
34
If a prophet or a priest or anyone else claims, `This is the oracle of the LORD,' I will punish that man and his household.
35
This is what each of you keeps on saying to his friend or relative: `What is the LORD's answer?' or `What has the LORD spoken?'
36
But you must not mention `the oracle of the LORD' again, because every man's own word becomes his oracle and so you distort the words of the living God, the LORD Almighty, our God.
37
This is what you keep saying to a prophet: `What is the LORD's answer to you?' or `What has the LORD spoken?'
38
Although you claim, `This is the oracle of the LORD,' this is what the LORD says: You used the words, `This is the oracle of the LORD,' even though I told you that you must not claim, `This is the oracle of the LORD.'
39
Therefore, I will surely forget you and cast you out of my presence along with the city I gave to you and your fathers.
40
I will bring upon you everlasting disgrace--everlasting shame that will not be forgotten."


Ezekiel 22:26
Her priests do violence to my law and profane my holy things; they do not distinguish between the holy and the common; they teach that there is no difference between the unclean and the clean; and they shut their eyes to the keeping of my Sabbaths, so that I am profaned among them.</font>
I am really interested in the point of the Ezekiel quote you mentioned:

Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">12
Eat the food as you would a barley cake; bake it in the sight of the people, using human excrement for fuel."
13
The LORD said, "In this way the people of Israel will eat defiled food among the nations where I will drive them."
14
Then I said, "Not so, Sovereign LORD! I have never defiled myself. From my youth until now I have never eaten anything found dead or torn by wild animals. No unclean meat has ever entered my mouth."
15
"Very well," he said, "I will let you bake your bread over cow manure instead of human excrement."
16
He then said to me: "Son of man, I will cut off the supply of food in Jerusalem. The people will eat rationed food in anxiety and drink rationed water in despair,
17
for food and water will be scarce. They will be appalled at the sight of each other and will waste away because of their sin.</font>

This really does seem to be Yahweh changing his mind... and not realizing that E. was always pure... and ...

A mistranslation of 'eternal' would explain that one verse... but it would not explain why we needed 2 sets of laws or the verse which says the Law would last as long as Heavan. Unless Heaven was a place which no longer exists?

I am wondering, as I do not have time to read the whole OT right now if part of that is Jewish tradition. I know they believe that Moses was the greatest Phophet, and that he saw all there was to come, only did not reveal it all. Thus, any later prophet who contradicts him is obviously false.

 
Old 03-07-2001, 05:34 PM   #9
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Post

Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by jess:
Some verses... all deut. (unless said otherwise)

This really does seem to be Yahweh changing his mind... and not realizing that E. was always pure... and ...

</font>

I won't delved into your first part at this juncture. It could be seen as a kind of test on Ezekiel, as he was a priest. I don't think it means that YHWH didn't recognise Ezekiel was "always pure"; rather a demonstration of the reasonableness of God, or the possibilities of prayer, or how God can accomplish HIs purpose through different means, etc. Not a definitive answer, but some possibilities.
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
A mistranslation of 'eternal' would explain that one verse... but it would not explain why we needed 2 sets of laws or the verse which says the Law would last as long as Heavan. Unless Heaven was a place which no longer exists?

I am wondering, as I do not have time to read the whole OT right now if part of that is Jewish tradition. I know they believe that Moses was the greatest Phophet, and that he saw all there was to come, only did not reveal it all. Thus, any later prophet who contradicts him is obviously false.
Quote:
</font>
Well I have some reading that may help you. I quoted the last part of it, but it is probably more worthwhile to read the whole argue, on the relationship of the Torah to Jews and how it has been seen by rabbis and Christians throughout the centuries. Paul writes of Jesus being the end(fulfillment) of the Law, as Jesus Himself said: "I have not come to abolish, but rather fulfill the Law and the Prophets." That is the teaching remains, if the Law is not followed to the letter.

The fact is, the Law cannot be obeyed today, and nobody does obey it. It contains demands of many sacrifices to be made in Jerusalem or Shiloh(the one place of worship) and this cannot be done anymore. The Bible makes the claim that any who has broken any part of the Law, is disobedient of all of it. (James)

There is a Jewish and Christian tradition of a new heavens and a new Earth, (Isaiah and Revelation) but that has not yet come, as far as I know.

The person at this website stresses that the Torah better means teaching then refers to a moral/political system that must be obeyed. For the final summary, read what I've quoted. IT could be more interesting to read the entire page, though.

http://www.jewsforjesus.org/topics/i...torahofgod.htm

Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
...It is at this point that the difference between Judaism as it is promulgated by the rabbis and Christianity is most acute, particularly in the writings of Paul. Even as the first Jewish believers in Messiah sought to define themselves within the context of first century Judaism, the question of whether righteousness could be achieved through works done under the law was a pressing issue, particularly as more and more gentiles were believing in the Jewish Messiah. Paul's writings in Romans and Galatians, and Luke's account of the council at Jerusalem in Acts 15 attest to this. At the core of this issue is the relationship of the sinner to the Torah, and while rabbinic literature presents the Torah as the cure, Paul speaks of it as the problem. And the resolution of the issue of where humanity stands in relation to the Torah of God can be discovered only in the relationship of Y'shua himself to the Torah.


Y'shua and Torah

The relationship of Jesus to Torah is best expressed in Matthew 5:17-18. Although these verses appear in the context of Jesus' teaching on the Kingdom, Jesus clearly teaches that there is to be no "end run" around the Torah. "Do not think I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."

How is this to be understood? The answer is found in Jesus himself. Acting on behalf of Israel and all of us, he does what Israel would not or would not do: obey God, and in doing so fulfill the law. Dietrich Bonhoeffer observes," Jesus, the Son of God, who alone lives in perfect communion with Him vindicates the law by coming to fulfill it."27 In doing so, now Jesus, and not the law, stands between us and God as living Torah, revealing God to us from on high, and acting for us from below, including us in his perfectly obedient response to God.

Returning to an earlier theme, Malachi's summons, "Return to me and I will return to you," is fulfilled by Y'shua from both sides. As God's Torah, Jesus summons us to return. As the perfect, Torah-keeping man, he returns on our behalf, and includes us in his teshuvah, as we believe in him.

It is for this reason that the believing person's relationship to the Law has changed so radically. R. Kearsley writes: "...Paul gives recognition to the Torah's power both to provoke disobedience and to produce condemnation...he also announces a radical break with the law both as it concerns the individual believer and the redemptive economy."28 Put simply, Messiah's work does not change the law's relationship to us, but our relationship to it, replacing the rabbinic idea of Torah and Torah keeping as a means to salvation with faith in Jesus who is, as Romans 10:4 has it, "the end (telos) of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes." The word telos does not merely indicate the point at which a thing is complete, but rather the goal toward which the process was pointing all along. Put another way, the goal toward which the Torah pointed all along is Jesus the Messiah, and his Kingdom. Reflecting on the significance of this, O. Kvarme writes: "The Torah is to be realized in a new righteousness, and this righteousness belongs to the Kingdom of God, the new salvific realm in which the Torah is fulfilled by Jesus."29</font>
 
Old 03-07-2001, 07:38 PM   #10
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Post

Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by oriecat:
Can someone explain this to me please?

Quote:
from Romans 14:2
...but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables.</font>
It must be referring to me. I'm a vegetarian and an Atheist!



[This message has been edited by MrSarcastic (edited March 07, 2001).]
 
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 01:02 PM.

Top

This custom BB emulates vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.