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Old 07-15-2001, 09:04 PM   #1
katlynnhow
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Question Extra-biblical evidence????

Okay, the following was sent to me by a fundie:

"Possible evidence in archeological record:

1) Merneptah's Tablet. Found by Flinder's Petrie in 1906 which dates back to the 5th year of Merneptah's reign. "Plundered is Canaan. Israel is desolate; his seed is not. Palestine is become a widow or Egypt." "his seed is not" may refer to the killing of male children.

2) Ramses II inscription "I built Pithom at the mouth of the East" (Exodus 1:11). Founded by Naville in 1883. Stamped on a long rectangular building dating back to his reign.

3) Stele of Ramses II states "Built Raamses with Asiatic Semitic slaves." Founded by Petrie in 1905."

I am unable to find much at all about any of these things and admittedly, I don't know anything about it. I would appreciate any info or links regarding these as extra-biblical evidence of the bible. Thanks!
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Old 07-16-2001, 09:10 PM   #2
katlynnhow
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Quote:
Originally posted by katlynnhow:
<STRONG>Okay, the following was sent to me by a fundie:

"Possible evidence in archeological record:

1) Merneptah's Tablet. Found by Flinder's Petrie in 1906 which dates back to the 5th year of Merneptah's reign. "Plundered is Canaan. Israel is desolate; his seed is not. Palestine is become a widow or Egypt." "his seed is not" may refer to the killing of male children.

2) Ramses II inscription "I built Pithom at the mouth of the East" (Exodus 1:11). Founded by Naville in 1883. Stamped on a long rectangular building dating back to his reign.

3) Stele of Ramses II states "Built Raamses with Asiatic Semitic slaves." Founded by Petrie in 1905."

I am unable to find much at all about any of these things and admittedly, I don't know anything about it. I would appreciate any info or links regarding these as extra-biblical evidence of the bible. Thanks!</STRONG>
Bueller? Bueller?
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Old 07-16-2001, 09:28 PM   #3
Muad'Dib
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A Google search should provide you with some useful information on these items.

What does (s)he argue that archaeological evidence will prove about the bible, anyway? There's no way you can go from document to pretty reliable document to inspired word of God using only archaeology.
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Old 07-17-2001, 06:47 AM   #4
Vorkosigan
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I suggest you read the following:

The Mythic Past: Biblical Archaeology and the Myth of Israel by T. Thompson

The Unauthorized Version by Robin Lane Fox

The Bible Unearthed

The latter two are available through the Infidels Bookstore.

Michael
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Old 07-17-2001, 10:13 AM   #5
lpetrich
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KLH:
1) Merneptah's Tablet. Found by Flinder's Petrie in 1906 which dates back to the 5th year of Merneptah's reign. "Plundered is Canaan. Israel is desolate; his seed is not. Palestine is become a widow or Egypt." "his seed is not" may refer to the killing of male children.

LP:
Or more likely, something like "Israel has no descendants". That name occurs alongside Canaan/Palestine, meaning that this refers to some war of conquest there, and not to the Exodus.

Egyptian records are totally blank on the Exodus. One counterargument is that they would not record defeats, but a counter-counterargument is defeats too big to hide might be twisted into victories with appropriate spin, as some present-day politicians have been known to do. Thus, an Egyptian record of the Exodus would brag about having expelled some troublesome and disease-ridden slaves.

KLH:
[On Pithom and Raamses...]

LP:
Real places, certainly, but the inscriptions are not very specific about the builders; they could be local citizens.
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Old 07-17-2001, 10:31 AM   #6
Vorkosigan
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Quote:
Originally posted by lpetrich:
LP:
Real places, certainly, but the inscriptions are not very specific about the builders; they could be local citizens.
In any case, as The Bible Unearthed shows, the references to Pithom et al are anachronisms that refer to eighth century events, and not events in the time of Rameses. I do not have the book with me, or I would put up their arguments. In short, the whole exodus story is fiction. Your friend's list is a bit like trying to authenticate Michener's Centennial by showing that Colorado is a real place.

Michael
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Old 07-17-2001, 10:43 AM   #7
Les Benton
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katly, Israel was old. He couldn't have any more children. He was about to die. His wife would become a widow. She had no sons to care for her. Canaan could offer her nothing.
It was Israel the man. Not the land.
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Old 07-17-2001, 04:08 PM   #8
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The expulsion of Achenaton, the monotheist, and his followers, could be seen as an Exodus of sorts, or when Thutmoses drove out the foreign rulers of Egypt and ushered in the Golden Age, but neither of these events were in the time of Ramses the Great.
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Old 07-17-2001, 04:17 PM   #9
lpetrich
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Quote:
Originally posted by turtonm:
<STRONG>

In any case, as The Bible Unearthed shows, the references to Pithom et al are anachronisms that refer to eighth century events, and not events in the time of Rameses. I do not have the book with me, or I would put up their arguments. In short, the whole exodus story is fiction. Your friend's list is a bit like trying to authenticate Michener's Centennial by showing that Colorado is a real place.

Michael</STRONG>
Or else something like a history of colonial-era US that presents Washington, DC as having existed back then, when it was founded after those colonies became independent.
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Old 07-17-2001, 07:57 PM   #10
katlynnhow
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Muad'dib - I did the google search but was unable to find enough info to formulate a coherent refutation. Which is why I came here!

turtonm - I noticed you made mention of the first book in another thread. I'll be sure to check into all three. Thank you!

Ipetrich - the counter-argument you describe is exactly the one I received. And yet, I was able to find evidence of decay and destruction in ancient Egypt with an internet search. How else would we know these things if they had not been recorded? The fundy in question as yet to respond to that... small wonder!

Les Benton - you make a good point. But this point presumes that Israel(Jacob) was an actual historical person verified by Egyptian record. Do you accept that Israel(Jacob) was an actual historical person?

marduck - I hadn't thought of Achenaton. BTW, I also pointed out to this same individual the similarities of the Jesus myth and your namesake.
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