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Old 01-21-2001, 09:48 PM   #11
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by marduck:
Quadwhore:"Plato might have predated Jesus but there is no evidence to suggest that Jesus and his followers were influenced by him in any way."

I don't know about this, first century Jerusalem was full of Hellenistic Jews (they wrote in Greek!)Greeks (Dogs) & Greek Cynic cults. Consider even Egypt was full of Greeks e.g. Cleopatra, the writers of the old testament Septuagint, etc.
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That's true Marduck. They could have had some influences from Plato. I'm not oppossed to the notion of some kinds of influences, but not in their basic conceptions of God. This theory makes it sound as though no one in first century Palestine ever thought about God until they heard Plato's views via Jesus. But of course Jesus had his concept of God from Judaism. And that goes into the OT and the prophet's conceptions of Messiah.

 
Old 01-22-2001, 03:22 AM   #12
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The Old Testament is said to have been written in c.280 b.c.e. This is long after Jerusalem was taken by Alexander the Great and Ptolemy I. The Jews (Essenes) became proficient in reading and writing in the Greek language. Fragments of the Book of Jubilees (damn near the whole book) have been found amongst the Dead Sea Scrolls but I am not aware of fragments of Genesis found there. It is quite plausible that Plato predates both books. The date of the great Flood differs by 300 years in the similiar books (Jubilees and Genesis) showing that the Jewish scholars were willing to edit the
books that God wrote so it is sure as hell possible that they edited their (HIS) story after reading Plato.
 
Old 01-22-2001, 10:25 PM   #13
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Well, Metacrock, I read your link, and I have to say that it adds nothing to the conversation beyond expanding upon the scope. I would like to know why you, rather arbitarily, judge the events in the New Testament as being historical. The events described in the Bible are not to be found anywhere outside it. There is no corroboration by any contemporary historian. Indeed, many of the events are echoed in other legends, which to me argues in favor of the New Testament also being mythological in nature.
 
Old 01-23-2001, 07:43 AM   #14
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Metacrock:

MEta =&gt; ahahjahahahahahaahahahahahahaahahahahahahahahahaah ahahahahahahahhaahahahahahahahaah,,


you are the one with the borken mind. Your undertanding of Christianity is aburd and shollow and has little to do with what the reilgion acutally says. You dont' seem to understand the historical context at all. And to top all of that off, you than have the arrogance to pretend that your hateful bigotry is an attept to help people? haha!

I was an atheist, I know what a bankrupt position that is. I was a good atheist, I was an effective arguer for atheism. There were no Chrsitains that I couldn't bash in argument. I spoiled them in argument time and time again, until I was finally forced to really come to terms witht he facts rather than my own self serving opinions. When I had to finally face what Christian theologians really say, and the actual evidence for the validity of it, and the reliaty of it in people's lives, I realized how aburd it is to claim that Christians are ignorant and can't think. The evangelizing athiest with the line about helping people is the one who isn't thinking.

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Sorry metacrock, you are wrong. I have read the New Testament many times through, and I believe I understand it better than you. It is unfortunate that so many people are driven away from their own peace of mind by overzealous behavior of those who "Know" God's will better than anyone else.

"Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considereth not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye." Matthew 7:1-5

I believe that you are not a true Christian, but rather someone who is deliberately trying to make Christians look bad by defending them with your style of argument and your deliberate ignorance of reason. If you were truly defending Christianity, you would do it by following the precepts of the New Testament. The deliberate disobedience to the teachings of the New Testament by Christians leads me to disbelieve the value of the Church, and religious groups in general.

Do you truly argue for Christianity, or are you making a deliberate farce of yourself in order to discredit Christianity?

I apologize if you are arguing for Christianity.
 
Old 01-23-2001, 10:11 AM   #15
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Does anyone know of a book or website that traces the evolution of the god Jehovah? Surely, someone must have noticed the concept of deity has gradually changed from book to book. I have heard by xians, that this is progressive revelation.

So, does anyone have a link? I recall seeing a TV program on A&E that covered the evolution of Judaism. It basically showed how certain beliefs (hellenistic for example) did not show up in the bible until a certain culture conquered Israel. Such god concepts seem to have evolved from a petty Zeus like creator in Genesis, to the 3 in 1, all powerfull, Plato like deity in the NT.
 
Old 01-23-2001, 10:35 AM   #16
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"> Fragments of the Book of Jubilees (damn near the whole book) have been found amongst the Dead Sea Scrolls but I am not aware of fragments of Genesis found there.</font>
I believe that fragments of all the known books of the OT were found there, with the exception of the book of Ester (which is odd, when you take into consideration that that is also the only OT book which does not have Y. as a main player--- it is entirely human).

My 2

It is more than likely that everyone in the basin read Plato--- and any other works available. At least those who were literate. The world was never as dark as we like to think it was.
 
 

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