Freethought & Rationalism Archive

J-D · 07-24-2013, 12:18 AM

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Originally Posted by Grog

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Originally Posted by J-D

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Originally Posted by Grog

I am interested in learning who you think is the individual who started preaching a message that was or became known as "Judaism."

I've already told you that I haven't taken any position on that question.

Yet you maintain that all religions begin with an individual preaching a message that is accepted by followers.

That is not correct: I have not made that claim.

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Originally Posted by Grog

Couldn't it be that the origins that you cannot name a founder for are obscure because the religious beliefs themselves evolved and were not originated by a single individual who preached a message that was accepted by followers?

Grog · 07-24-2013, 06:43 AM

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Originally Posted by J-D

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Originally Posted by Grog

If you attribute the origins of a religious belief to an individual preacher, then where did that religious belief come from if not from that preacher out of "whole cloth?"

If somebody preaches a novel religious message which adapts and incorporates some elements drawn from earlier sources, then I don't think it's accurate to describe it as having been made up out of whole cloth

aren't you now talking about memetic evolution?

J-D · 07-24-2013, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grog

Quote:

Originally Posted by J-D

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grog

If you attribute the origins of a religious belief to an individual preacher, then where did that religious belief come from if not from that preacher out of "whole cloth?"

If somebody preaches a novel religious message which adapts and incorporates some elements drawn from earlier sources, then I don't think it's accurate to describe it as having been made up out of whole cloth

aren't you now talking about memetic evolution?

I don't think so, not unless you want to redefine 'memetic evolution' so that it means nothing more than 'cultural change over time', which is the explanandum, not the explanans.

J-D · 07-24-2013, 03:01 PM

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Originally Posted by outhouse

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Originally Posted by J-D

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Originally Posted by outhouse

You would be correct if they lived reality, buy they didn't.

They lived mythology did they not?

Our reality is not there's. Hope that clears the confusion.

I don't think so. Nobody lives in mythology. Everybody lives in reality, and so did everybody who ever has lived.

I did not say "in" mythology

Their lives however were surrounded by religious belief, part of the definition of Judaism is "a way of life" is it not?

No, it isn't.

You said they lived mythology. Nobody lives mythology. Anything that people live is real, and therefore not mythical.

outhouse · 07-24-2013, 03:06 PM

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Originally Posted by J-D

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Originally Posted by outhouse

I did not say "in" mythology

Their lives however were surrounded by religious belief, part of the definition of Judaism is "a way of life" is it not?

No, it isn't..

I challanege that statement.

Judiasm is a way of life.

http://www.netplaces.com/judaism/wha...ay-of-life.htm

It is crucial to remember that Judaism is not merely a set of ideas about the world. Perhaps more importantly, it is a blueprint for a way of life.

Have anything that opposes that statement?

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You said they lived mythology. Nobody lives mythology. Anything that people live is real, and therefore not mythical

Sure they do. Please dont get too deep philisophically, it defeats the purpose of our discussion.

Billions of people today in one religion alone, believe in what amounts to a grey bearded ole man who lives in the clouds and grants them eternal life, and they live their lives to appease this gentleman.

J-D · 07-24-2013, 03:18 PM

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Originally Posted by outhouse

Quote:

Originally Posted by J-D

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Originally Posted by outhouse

I did not say "in" mythology

Their lives however were surrounded by religious belief, part of the definition of Judaism is "a way of life" is it not?

No, it isn't..

I challanege that statement.

Judiasm is a way of life.

http://www.netplaces.com/judaism/wha...ay-of-life.htm

It is crucial to remember that Judaism is not merely a set of ideas about the world. Perhaps more importantly, it is a blueprint for a way of life.

Have anything that opposes that statement?

You said 'part of the definition of Judaism is "a way of life"'. That is not synonymous with 'some people say Judaism is a blueprint for a way of life'.

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Originally Posted by outhouse

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You said they lived mythology. Nobody lives mythology. Anything that people live is real, and therefore not mythical

Sure they do. Please dont get too deep philisophically, it defeats the purpose of our discussion.

That depends on what you think the purpose of our discussion is. I would like to achieve clarity. If your purpose is to avoid clarity, it's inevitable that we'll be at odds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

Billions of people today in one religion alone, believe in what amounts to a grey bearded ole man who lives in the clouds and grants them eternal life, and they live their lives to appease this gentleman.

Yes, people believe things that aren't true, and live their lives on the basis of those beliefs. But why? And out of all the myriad of things people might believe that aren't true, why do they believe the particular things they believe that aren't true?

outhouse · 07-24-2013, 10:32 PM

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Originally Posted by J-D

You said 'part of the definition of Judaism is "a way of life"'. That is not synonymous with 'some people say Judaism is a blueprint for a way of life'.

Yet it doesn't refute what I stated about Judaism being a way of life.

That only shows the one of many links I chose from, does not line up philosophically to your liking.

My buddy, do you understand E.S.P. and its relationship to Judaism?

http://www.beingjewish.org/htmlpages/esp.html

J-D · 07-25-2013, 05:11 AM

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Originally Posted by outhouse

Quote:

Originally Posted by J-D

You said 'part of the definition of Judaism is "a way of life"'. That is not synonymous with 'some people say Judaism is a blueprint for a way of life'.

Yet it doesn't refute what I stated about Judaism being a way of life.

I have no idea which 'it' you are referring to.

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Originally Posted by outhouse

That only shows the one of many links I chose from, does not line up philosophically to your liking.

You said 'part of the definition of Judaism is "a way of life"'. You have failed to demonstrate that to be true.

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Originally Posted by outhouse

My buddy, do you understand E.S.P. and its relationship to Judaism?

Don't call me your buddy.

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Originally Posted by outhouse

http://www.beingjewish.org/htmlpages/esp.html

semiopen · 07-25-2013, 05:39 AM

Regarding the Jewish belief of no inspired guy starting the religion -

Deuteronomy 4:10-15

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10 the day that thou stoodest before the LORD thy God in Horeb, when the LORD said unto me: 'Assemble Me the people, and I will make them hear My words that they may learn to fear Me all the days that they live upon the earth, and that they may teach their children.'
11 And ye came near and stood under the mountain; and the mountain burned with fire unto the heart of heaven, with darkness, cloud, and thick darkness.
12 And the LORD spoke unto you out of the midst of the fire; ye heard the voice of words, but ye saw no form; only a voice.
13 And He declared unto you His covenant, which He commanded you to perform, even the ten words; and He wrote them upon two tables of stone.
14 And the LORD commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and ordinances, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it.
15 Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves--for ye saw no manner of form on the day that the LORD spoke unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire--

This is perhaps remarkable in that the earlier religions probably wouldn't have had a human founder. Yet here it is given as something unusual.

Religion_in_Mesopotamia

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This article has multiple issues

however we don't see any discussion of a founder.

Sinai (Strong's H5514) is not a frequent word in the old testament outside of the Pentateuch... It appears in the song of Deborah Judges 5:5

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The mountains quaked at the presence of the LORD, even yon Sinai at the presence of the LORD, the God of Israel.

other than Nehemiah 9:13 which is post exilic, it comes up in psalm 68.

My guess is that the concept of the divine revelation is during or after the Babylonian exile.

outhouse · 07-25-2013, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J-D

. You have failed to demonstrate that to be true.

Only in your eyes friend

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