Freethought & Rationalism Archive

mountainman · 09-13-2013, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

On the LXX being present at the library in Alexandria for public consumption see bottom p 117

http://books.google.com/books?id=YF1...tput=html_text

Didn't the Common Era Christians use an LXX with a recognisable series of nomina sacra (shared with nomina sacra the New Testament)?

Even if you assume the BCE Ptolemaic LXX "legend" to be true (which I don't) are you also arguing that the pre-Christian BCE LXX already had in it the Christian nomina sacra?

And you are still avoiding answering the question about (assuming the Bible was in public libraries) a Greek literate reader who, wandering into a library and finding the Koine (and not Attic) Greek Bible, would have any idea about how to interpret the "sacred code names" like "JS" and "CT" etc.

If Christian books were in public libraries who held the true meanings behind the "Christian Sacred Names"? (Because Jesus Christ etc is not mentioned in the earliest Greek codices). It may have forced the pagans to go to church to learn what these codes were, because only the church preservers of the codes knew. Conversely without the knowledge of what the codes stood for (CHREST or CHRIST; JESUS or JOSHUA; etc) the NT becomes meaningless.

stephan huller · 09-13-2013, 10:41 PM

BTW. This is our first useful conversation ever.

Quote:

Even if you assume the BCE Ptolemaic LXX "legend" to be true (which I don't) are you also arguing that the pre-Christian BCE LXX already had in it the Christian nomina sacra?

No. I am not an expert on these things. To be honest I think that Aquila's translation was more authoritative in the early first century. I am not even certain that what passes for the LXX is the same as Philo's text. But again I am not an expert.

Quote:

And you are still avoiding answering the question about (assuming the Bible was in public libraries) a Greek literate reader who, wandering into a library and finding the Koine (and not Attic) Greek Bible, would have any idea about how to interpret the "sacred code names" like "JS" and "CT" etc.

There are a lot of theories about these sacred letters. Trobisch from what I remember thinks they are associated with a specific 'brand' of Christianity - i.e. the orthodox. I think the consensus is that their number was originally limited to kurios and it was an outgrowth of the special reverence paid to the Tetragrammaton. But I am not an expert.

Of course this is just a theory and it doesn't take into account Christianity emerging in forms of Christianity outside of the orthodox variety - i.e. Marcionitism and whether or not under such a scheme Jesus was juxtaposed against 'the Jewish God' rather than identified with him (as with kurios which I think even the Marcionites would make that equation).

If Jesus was juxtaposed rather than understood as complimentary then I have long argued that IS (IC) might have been what Aquila had in place of Ish (= man). In other words it wasn't a short form, it was a transliteration. But again there so much we don't know. Is it possible that pagan nomina sacra existed? What about among the Pythagroeans? There is so much we don't know.

If Christian books were in public libraries who held the true meanings behind the "Christian Sacred Names"? (Because Jesus Christ etc is not mentioned in the earliest Greek codices). It may have forced the pagans to go to church to learn what these codes were, because only the church preservers of the codes knew.

stephan huller · 09-13-2013, 11:05 PM

On Origen's writings being in a public library in Tyre:

Quote:

Nautin has suggested that Eusebius found some of Origen's letters at Tyre, but, while it is possible that some of Origen's letters were in a Tyrian ecclesiastical archive or library, Naurin's conjecture rests on the judgment that Origen died at Tyre a judgment which is disputable (see chapter I). Because Eusebius visited Tyre himself, he could also have used the public library that probably existed at Tyre, as well as Paulinus' library. North of Tyre, Eusebius had another friend. Theodotus had become bishop of Laodicea in Syria at Theodotus had become bishop of Laodicea in Syria at some time during the Great Persecution (HE VII.32.23), and Eusebius eventually dedicated his PE and DE and Eusebius eventually dedicated his PE and DE to him. Both he and Eusebius were excommunicated at the Council of Antioch in 325, and both were rehabilitated at Nicaea. [https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bk...+PE+and+DE%22]

stephan huller · 09-13-2013, 11:09 PM

Carriker's book on Eusebius's Library at Caesarea as PDF:

http://home.lu.lv/~harijs/Macibu%20m...rea%202003.pdf

On Jewish books being present in the public library of Caesarea at the time of Herod:

Quote:

Apart from its political and economic importance, however, Caesarea should attract our attention because of the library that made it an intellectual center. It is possible that, when he planned his new city, Herod provided for a public library, and no doubt the Jewish community had a collection of its own Scriptures and rabbinic writings. But the Christian library at Caesarea would surpass these foundations.

and again at Alexandria and Caesarea:

Quote:

Comparison with the size of other libraries will, perhaps, put Isidore’s number into perspective. First to be considered are the libraries whose estimated contents would have been in rolls. The lost celebrated library of the ancient world, that at Alexandria, is estimated by various ancient authorities to have contained approximately 500,000 rolls.104 Even though this number is probably an exaggeration (a library that was a tenth of this size would still have been very large in antiquity), it should be remembered that the Alexandrian Museum was meant to contain all of Greek literature, and its collection included technical manuals, the Alexandrian librarians’ own works (often literary aids), and specialized works, like cookbooks.

a public library established at Jerusalem by Hadrian:

Quote:

Hadrian seems to have ensured that the new foundation of Aelia Capitolina had all the structures worthy of a Graeco-Roman city (cf. Chronicon Paschale s. a. 119 [Olympiad 224.3] [Dindorf I.474]), and this could well have included some sort of a library.

and again:

Quote:

There is little to suggest that Alexander’s library contained valuable non-Christian works. A fragment from the eighteenth book of Julius Africanus’ Kestoi indicates that a manuscript of Homer’s Odyssey with variant readings was available at Jerusalem, but it is not entirely clear that this text of Homer was in Alexander’s library, since Africanus refers to érxe›a (“archives”) in Aelia.102 Perhaps this reference is to a public library in Aelia.103

stephan huller · 09-13-2013, 11:45 PM

It seems that Origen's works were found in the public library at Tyre.

Quote:

It was found, fifty years after his death, in the public library of the city of Tyre. It was called Hexapla. http://books.google.com/books?id=Rh4...20tyre&f=false

Quote:

It was found fifty years after his death, in an obscure place, in the city of Tyre, and deposited in the public library http://books.google.com/books?id=Z4U...20tyre&f=false

Quote:

From Tyre, where its author left it, it was brought to Ceesarea by Pamphilus, when he founded a public library in that city http://books.google.com/books?id=Nux...20tyre&f=false

stephan huller · 09-13-2013, 11:47 PM

I don't know how accurate these statements are but there are consistent references to the idea that the 'Christian' libraries of Jerusalem and Caesarea were 'public libraries'

Quote:

One of the things that Alexander did during his long episcopate was to found the public library of Aelia, which served Eusebius in his researches.93 Such a gesture betrays an open and inquiring personality. http://books.google.com/books?id=rOd...%20%22&f=false

Quote:

They had also public libraries at Jerusalem and Cæsarea, founded by Alexander and Pamphilus, men of great learning. http://books.google.com/books?id=q1A...ies%22&f=false

Eusebius on the establishment of a Christian public library in Jerusalem:

Quote:

There flourished many learned men in the Church at that time, whose letters to each other have been preserved and are easily accessible. They have been kept until our time in the library at Ælia, which was established by Alexander, who at that time presided over that church. We have been able to gather from that library material for our present work.

stephan huller · 09-13-2013, 11:58 PM

This third century Roman library certainly contained Christian books:

Quote:

Sextus Julius Africanus, born in Jerusalem, friend of Origen, founded the public library in the Pantheon of Rome for Caesar Alexander Severus, and wrote the first Christian world history and an encyclopedia (Kestoi = Embroideries). http://books.google.com/books?id=2pY...dia%22&f=false

stephan huller · 09-14-2013, 12:02 AM

I think this is significant too. Closes the book on the argument I believe:

Quote:

Eusebius himself speaks of a public library at Rome where one could find Philo's book On Virtues (Church History ii. 18. 8) as well as the writings of Josephus (iii. 9. 2). He wrote his own works, however, in reliance on the church libraries at Jerusalem and Caesarea.http://books.google.com/books?id=vCj...=0CDcQ6AEwADgy

Indeed I think the language suggests that all the works of Philo could be found in the libraries:

Quote:

After these was composed by him the work On the Contemplative Life, or On Suppliants, from which we have drawn the facts concerning the life of the apostolic men; and still further, the Interpretation of the Hebrew Names in the Law and in the Prophets are said to be the result of his industry. And he is said to have read in the presence of the whole Roman Senate during the reign of Claudius the work which he had written, when he came to Rome under Caius, concerning Caius' hatred of the gods, and to which, with ironical reference to its character, he had given the title On the Virtues. And his discourses were so much admired as to be deemed worthy of a place in the libraries.

and again:

Quote:

He (Josephus) was the most noted of all the Jews of that day, not only among his own people, but also among the Romans, so that he was honored by the erection of a statue in Rome, and his works were deemed worthy of a place in the library.

Runia seems to accept the existence of Philo's writings in Rome and pagan use of those manuscripts:

http://books.google.com/books?id=3Jy...ies%22&f=false

'Josephus' or one of his synergoi copied Philo's writings from the Roman public libraries:

http://books.google.com/books?id=qIt...ies%22&f=false

aa5874 · 09-14-2013, 12:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

This third century Roman library certainly contained Christian books:

Quote:

Sextus Julius Africanus, born in Jerusalem, friend of Origen, founded the public library in the Pantheon of Rome for Caesar Alexander Severus, and wrote the first Christian world history and an encyclopedia (Kestoi = Embroideries). http://books.google.com/books?id=2pY...dia%22&f=false

Not a single book of Julius Africanus has ever been found and in any library.

The writings of Eusebius are NOT credible.

No contemporary writer of the 2nd century that mentioned Libraries mentioned a book by Julius Africanus in a Library or a Library founded by Julius Africanus.

At the start of Church History 1, the very same Eusebius admitted he could NOT find the barest footstep of those before him except for some FRAGMENTS.

Church History 1.4

Quote:

..... I pray that I may have God as my guide and the power of the Lord as my aid, since I am unable to find even the bare footsteps of those who have traveled the way before me, except in brief fragments, in which some in one way, others in another, have transmitted to us particular accounts of the times in which they lived.

There were NO Jesus cult books in the Public Libraries or Eusebius was Lying from the very beginning.

mountainman · 09-14-2013, 03:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

BTW. This is our first useful conversation ever.

Well I hope its not our last.

Despite our differences (of opinions, hypothesis and starting-places) all participants should be still be quite capable of learning at least something useful from each other. Everyone here has taught me something.

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