Freethought & Rationalism Archive

stephan huller · 09-14-2013, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Origen lived and worked at Caesarea. Pamphilus worked there also, and of course Eusebius studded his texts with quotations. The library was at Caesarea, I think; not Tyre.

The story seems to be they found the Hexapla in a library in Tyre and brought it with them to Caesarea.

stephan huller · 09-14-2013, 03:00 PM

It seems at least some scholars have considered that some of the material from Oxyrhynchus were part of a public library:

Quote:

The place in Egypt where most of these book fragments were excavated is Oxyrhynchus in Middle Egypt, about 220 kilometers south of modern Cairo. This provincial capital was not very important in the Ptolemaic period, but became a flourishing center of Hellenized life in the Roman period, counting numerous highly educated people among its inhabitants. It is the libraries of these people that were excavated from the end of the nineteenth century by the British scholars B. P. Grenfell and A. S. Hunt. So far, no public library has been identified in Oxyrhynchus, but we see that time and again it is the same scribes who copied the texts on papyrus rolls in Oxyrhynchus, most of whom copied prose texts as well as poetry (Johnson 2004: 16–37).

I wonder whether the late second/early third century scroll of Irenaeus at Oxyrhynchus was at a public library? This seems to make that even more likely:

http://books.google.com/books?id=u9n...ary%22&f=false

Roger Pearse · 09-14-2013, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Quote:

Origen lived and worked at Caesarea. Pamphilus worked there also, and of course Eusebius studded his texts with quotations. The library was at Caesarea, I think; not Tyre.

The story seems to be they found the Hexapla in a library in Tyre and brought it with them to Caesarea.

Can I ask who says this?

stephan huller · 09-14-2013, 03:16 PM

I don't know the original source but I cited three different modern sources who say the same thing. see above

stephan huller · 09-14-2013, 03:19 PM

On the library at Oxyrhynchus. Another source says http://books.google.com/books?id=SrT...ut.%22&f=false

Quote:

If we now look at our no. 3 as a list of the books in a library,26 we are struck first of all by how little information it provides. We find authors and titles only: no dates (of composition, say, or of when this copy was made, or of acquisition)

and then the footnote 26 here reads:

Quote:

There is no way to know if this was purely a private collection or a ''public'' library. Nor is there likely to be much difference: any owner of books was likely to make his collection, or specific books in it, available to his friends and to scholars We see this both in Egypt (P.Oxy. 2192 1⁄4 Otranto 11, cf. the discussion by Johnson forthcoming; P.GettyMus. acc. 76.AI.57 1⁄4 Otranto 4; and P.Mil.Vogliano 11 1⁄4 Otranto 5) and in Italy, where Lucullus threw open his library to his friends and to Greek scholars (Plut. Luc. 42.1–2). That is, any such library could be made available, though privately owned, to much ofthe reading public. And ...

stephan huller · 09-14-2013, 03:20 PM

Again here is the same story http://books.google.com/books?id=Fpg...esarea&f=false

Quote:

Pamphilus and Eusebius having, about the conclusion of the third century, found the Hexapla of Origen in the library of Caesarea, (or, according as some relate, brought it from Tyre and placed it there,) Pcorrected out of the Septuagint version

stephan huller · 09-14-2013, 04:55 PM

The fact that p oxy 405 was a roll is very significant too

stephan huller · 09-14-2013, 05:26 PM

I am also starting to think the rolls of the Gospel of Thomas were for reading in a library. The letters too small for reading out loud. The contents seem to be meant for personal use and reflection

stephan huller · 09-14-2013, 09:07 PM

List of documents dated to the fourth century related to Christianity:

http://www.areopage.net/PDF/PapyriFr...ityInEgypt.pdf

I notice from this list that all manuscripts of Irenaeus in Egypt were on rolls - i.e. scrolls rather than codices.

The other Irenaeus fragment:

Quote:

P.Jena III/IV Apollonopolis? / Panopolis? Irenaeus, Adversus Haereses 5.3, 2-12,2 ;5.12,2-13,1

aa5874 · 09-14-2013, 11:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Quote:

Which author of second, third, or fourth century, before Constantine, references the existence of the four gospels located in a public library?

None. But Irenaeus repeatedly says that 'everyone' who wants to can check the canonical gospels put forward by the Church and 'see' for themselves that they are authentic. This as a juxtaposition against the heretics who have a 'secret gospel' (Praescript 22 etc). Some might take that to mean that outsiders should come to local church locations and 'see for themselves.' But I find that hard to believe - i.e. that outsiders could come into local house churches and grab a manuscript and do all the stuff that was usually done in a library setting. I think a library is the most likely place to conduct 'library activities.'

You seem not to remember that the claims made by Irenaeus about the authenticity, chronology and dating of the Canonical gospels have been REJECTED almost universally by Scholars.

You yourself have argued that the NT are LATER forgeries to prove PRIMACY.

You yourself have argued that there is evidence parts of Against Heresies were composed in the 3rd century.

Your own findings contradict Irenaeus.

Writings attributed to Irenaeus are NOT credible--they are bogus and show evidence that the author was a fabricator.

"Against Heresies" is pure unadulterated BS--monstrous myth fables--written by multiple unknown authors.

Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are ALL Fakes and the Gospels were NOT composed before c 70 CE.

Irenaeus is a REJECT.

Irenaeus' Against Heresies 3.1

Quote:

Matthew also issued a written Gospel among the Hebrews(3) in their own dialect, while Peter and Paul were preaching at Rome, and laying the foundations of the Church.

After their departure, Mark, the disciple and interpreter of Peter, did also hand down to us in writing what had been preached by Peter.

Luke also, the companion of Paul, recorded in a book the Gospel preached by him.

Afterwards, John, the disciple of the Lord, who also had leaned upon His breast, did himself publish a Gospel during his residence at Ephesus in Asia.

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09-14-2013, 03:16 PM	#164
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	I don't know the original source but I cited three different modern sources who say the same thing. see above

09-14-2013, 04:55 PM	#167
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	The fact that p oxy 405 was a roll is very significant too

09-14-2013, 05:26 PM	#168
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	I am also starting to think the rolls of the Gospel of Thomas were for reading in a library. The letters too small for reading out loud. The contents seem to be meant for personal use and reflection

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