Freethought & Rationalism Archive

mountainman · 03-27-2013, 07:54 PM

Quote:

all these they hold to be the plots of Hecate, and the invasions the and use purifications and incantations, and, as appears to me, make the divinity to be most wicked and most impious

δαιμόνιον ..... divine being, spirit

Your claimed exception Jeffrey is horseshit.

εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

Jeffrey Gibson · 03-27-2013, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

In any case I am not responsible for forum members lack of knowledge of Greek or Hebrew or Latin or any other ancient language. They are. And if they wish to be taken seriously when they speak of what an ancient text says, or what a Greek or Hebrew etc. word means, it's up to them, not me, to do their home work.

/////

Hippocrates et Corpus Hippocraticum Med., De morbo sacro (TLG text 0627: 027)
“Oeuvres complètes d'Hippocrate, vol. 6”, Ed. Littré, É.
Paris: Baillière, 1849, Repr. 1962.
Section 1, line 65

Τοιαῦτα λέγοντες καὶ μηχανεύμενοι προςποιέονται πλέον τι εἰδέναι, καὶ ἀνθρώπους ἐξαπατέουσι προστιθέμενοι τούτοισιν ἁγνείας τε καὶ καθαρότητας, ὅ τε πουλὺς αὐτοῖσι τοῦ λόγου ἐς τὸ θεῖον ἀφήκει καὶ τὸ δαιμόνιον.

OK Jeffrey. Stand by while I obtain an English translation from someone else other than your self, for your claimed exception.

Did you take me as saying that I thought that this was the only BCE text in which δαιμόν is used to mean "evil spirit?

In any case, when you find your translator, ask him or her if he/she believes your claim that it isn't until we get to Christian uses of the word that we find being used with the meaning of "evil spirit".

Jeffrey

Jeffrey Gibson · 03-27-2013, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

The OP is quite specific. It's about "Daimon".

I see. So what's with your claim made here that what you stated in the OP was a desire to gather "together the instances of what all ancient writers (Greek and Latin) wrote about the term δαίμων in order to understand what they meant by this term"?

Quote:

Originally Posted by JG

Yes. But you are the one who cited the Wiki entry as good evidence to back up your claims about daimon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MM

The OP made reference to both WIKI and to the following Greek-English Lexicon, in which I have highlighted in blue the bulk of the entries, and in red a small minority of entries, commencing with Matthew.

There is no reference to Wiki in the OP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon

DAIMON

δαίμων , ονος, voc.

A. “δαίμων” S.OC1480 (lyr.), “δαῖμον” Theoc.2.11, ὁ, ἡ, god, goddess, of individual gods or goddesses, Il.1.222, 3.420, etc.; “δαίμονι ἶσος” 5.438; ἐμίσγετο δαίμονι δαίμων, of Φιλίη and Νεῖκος, Emp. 59.1 :—but more freq. of the Divine power (while θεός denotes a God in person), the Deity, cf. Od.3.27; πρὸς δαίμονα against the Divine power, Il.17.98; σὺν δαίμονι by its grace, 11.792; κατὰ δαίμονα, almost, = τύχῃ, by chance, Hdt.1.111; “τύχᾳ δαίμονος” Pi.O.8.67; ἄμαχος δ., i. e. Destiny, B.15.23: in pl., ὅτι δαίμονες θέλωσιν, what the Gods ordain, Id.16.117; “ταῦτα δ᾽ ἐν τῷ δ.” S. OC1443; “ἡ τύχη καὶ ὁ δ.” Lys. 13.63, cf.Aeschin.3.111; “κατὰ δαίμονα καὶ συντυχίαν” Ar.Av.544.

2. the power controlling the destiny of individuals: hence, one's lot or forlune, “δτυγερὸς δέ οἱ ἔχραε δ.” Od.5.396, cf. 10.64; “δαίμονος αἶσα κακή” 11.61; δαίμονα δώσω I will deal thee fate, i.e. kill thee, I1.8.166; freq. in Trag. of good or ill fortune, “ὅταν ὁ δ. εὐροῇ” A.Pers.601; “δ. ἀσινής” Id.Ag.1342 (lyr.); “κοινός” Id.Th.812; “γενναῖος πλὴν τοῦ δαίμονος” S.OC76; “δαίμονος σκληρότης” Antipho 3.3.4; “τὸν οἴακα στρέφει δ. ἑκάστψ” Anaxandr.4.6; personified as the good or evil genius of a family or person, “δ. τῷπλεισθενιδῶν” A.Ag.1569, cf. S.OT1194 (lyr.); “ὁ ἑκάστου δ.” Pl.Phd.107d, cf. PMag.Lond.121.505, Iamb.Myst.9.1; “ὁ δ. ὁ τὴν ἡμετέραν μοῖραν λελογχώς” Lys.2.78; “ἅπαντι δ. ἀνδρι συμπαρίσταται εὐθὺς γενομένῳ μυσταγωγὸς τοῦ βίου” Men.16.2 D.; “δ. ἀλάστορες” Id.8D.; “ὁ μέγας [τοῦ Καίσαρος] δ.” Plu.Caes.69; ὁ σὸς δ. κακός ibid.; “ὁ βασιλέως δ.” Id.Art.15; “ἦθος ἀνθρώπῳ δ.” Heraclit.119; “Ξενοκράτης φησὶ τὴν ψυχὴν ἑκάστου εἶναι δ.” Arist.Top.112a37.

II. δαίμονες, οἱ, souls of men of the golden age, acting as tutelary deities, Hes.Op. 122, Thgn.1348, Phoc.15, Emp.115.5, etc.; “θεῶν, δ., ἡρώων, τῶν ἐν Ἅιδου” Pl.R.392a: less freq. in sg., “δαίμονι δ᾽ οἷος ἔησθα τὸ ἐργάζεσθαι ἄμεινον” Hes.Op.314; τὸν τὲ δ. Δαρεῖον ἀγκαλεῖσθε, of the deified Darius, A.Pers.620; νῦν δ᾽ ἐστὶ μάκαιρα δ., of Alcestis, E.Alc.1003 (lyr.), cf.IG12(5).305.5 (Paros): later, of departed souls, Luc.Luct.24; δαίμοσιν εὐσεβέσιν, = Dis Manibus, IG14.1683; so θεοὶ δ., ib.938, al.: also, ghost, Paus.6.6.8.

2. generally, spiritual or semi-divine being inferior to the Gods, Plu.2.415a, al., Sallust.12, Dam.Pr.183, etc.; sp. eevil spirit, demon, Ev.Matt.8.31, J.AJ8.2.5; “φαῦλοι δ.” Alex.Aphr.Pr.2.46; δαίμονος ἔσοδος εἰς τὸν ἄνθρωπον, Aret.SD1.4; “πρᾶξις ἐκβάλλουσα δαίμονας” PMag.Par.1227.

3. ἀγαθὸς δ. the Good Genius to whom a toast was drunk after dinner, Ar.V.525, Nicostr.Com.20, D.S.4.3, Plu.2.655e, Philonid. ap. Ath.15.675b, Paus.9.39.5, IG12(3).436 (Thera), etc.; of Nero, “ἀ. δ. τῆς οἰκουμένης” OGI666.3; of the Nile, ἀ. δ. ποταμός ib.672.7 (i A.D.); of the tutelary genius of individuals (supr. 1), “ἀ. δ. Ποσειδωνίου” SIG1044.9 (Halic.): pl., δαίμονες ἀ., = Lat. Di Manes, SIG1246 (Mylasa): Astrol., ἀγαθός, κακός δ., names of celestial κλῆροι, Paul.Al.N.4, O.1, etc. (Less correctly written Ἀγαθοδαίμων, q.v.).

B. = δαήμων, knowing, δ. μάχης skilled in fight, Archil.3.4. (Pl. Cra.398b, suggests this as the orig. sense; while others would write δαήμονες in Archil., and get rid of this sense altogether; cf. however αἵμων. More probably the Root of δαίμων (deity) is δαίω to distribute destinies;; cf. Alcm.48.)

Quote:

So here are the small number of negative exceptions which commence with Ev.Matt.8.31.... (5)

esp. evil spirit, demon,
Ev.Matt.8.31,
Josephus.AJ8.2.5;
“φαῦλοι δ.” Alex.Aphr.Pr.2.46;
δαίμονος ἔσοδος εἰς τὸν ἄνθρωπον, Aret.SD1.4;
“πρᾶξις ἐκβάλλουσα δαίμονας” PMag.Par.1227.

I thought you acknowledged that LSJ was not intent to adduce all instances of a given use of a word with a meaning that they note is to be found in it, and that LSJ cound not be used to deterime how many times a word was used by Greek writers with a given sense.

Tell me, Pete, are the instances that LSJ cites to show that Greeks used δαίμων to mean the power controlling the destiny of individuals: hence, one's lot or forlune all of the instances in the whole of ancient Greek literature in which this meaning can be found.

Do you know how many times δαίμων is used in Greek literature before the 4th century CE when you claim the Gospels were first composed -- and therefore when δαίμων was first used to mean "evil spirit"?

A searh of the TLG shows that between from the 8th century BCE and the beginning of the first century CE there are 709 instances just of the the nominative singular form alone. There are 331 uses of its nominative plural form. I won'ty bother looking up its singularv and lural genative, accusative, and dative forms since it's already clear that the number of noanative forms far exceeds what one might suppose was the case if you only used the number of times the word is adduced in LSJ as your guide to the actual numebr of times the word is found in Greek literature.

And do you think too that LSJ lists the instances they do give diachronically so that in their listing of Matt 8:31 first when they give attestations to the use of a the word to mean generally, spiritual or semi-divine being inferior to the Gods, Plu.2.415a, al., Sallust.12, Dam.Pr.183, etc.; esp(ecially)evil spirit, demon, they are claiming that the first time the word was used in this sense occurs in Matthew?

Say it ain't so, Pete!

Jeffrey

Jeffrey Gibson · 03-27-2013, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Hipp. Morb.Sacr. 1 (English)

all these they hold to be the plots of Hecate, and the invasions the and use purifications and incantations, and, as appears to me, make the divinity to be most wicked and most impious

Quote:

δαιμόνιον ..... divine being, spirit

LSJ:

Quote:

δαιμόνιον, τό, divine Power, Divinity, Hdt.5.87, E.Ba.894 (lyr.), Isoc.1.13, Pl.R.382e, etc.; τὸ δαιμόνιον ἄρʼ ἢ θεὸς ἢ θεοῦ ἔργον Arist.Rh.1398a15, cf. 1419a9; οἱ θεοὶ εἴσονται καὶ τὸ δ. D.19.239; φοβεῖσθαι μή τι δ. πράγματʼ ἐλαύνῂ some fatality, Id.9.54; τὰ τοῦ δ. the favours of fortune, Pl.Epin.992d.

II. inferior divine being, μεταξὸ θεου τε καὶ θνητοῦ Id.Smp.202e; καινὰ δ. εἰσφέρειν X.Mem.1.1.2, Pl.Ap.24c, cf. Vett.Val.67.5, etc.; applied to the ‘genius’ of Socrates, X.Mem.1.1.2, Pl.Ap.40a, Tht.151a, Euthphr.3b.

2. evil spirit δ. φαῦλα Chrysipp.Stoic [281–208 b.c] 2.338, .cf. Lxx De.32.17,To.3.8, Ev.Matt.7.22, al., PMag.Lond.1.46.120 (iv a.d.).

BDAG

Quote:

δαιμόνιον, ου, τό (substant. neut. of the adj. δαιμόνιος [s. 2 below δαιμόνιον πνεῦμα], quotable since Homer; Dit., Or. 383, 175; Herm. Wr. 10, 19; Ps.-Phoc. 101; Philo; Jos., Bell. 1, 373; 6, 429).

1. a deity, divinity (Eur., Bacch. 894; Hdt. 5, 87; Pla., Apol. 26b; X., Mem. 1, 1, 1 καινὰ δαιμόνια εἰσφέρειν. Sg., Dit., Syll.3 545, 14; 601, 15; UPZ 144, 43; 50 [164 bc]; Vett. Val. 355, 15; Philo, Mos. 1, 276; Jos., Bell. 1, 69) ξένων δ. καταγγελεύς a preacher of strange divinities Ac 17:18.

2. demon, evil spirit, of independent beings who occupy a position somewhere between the human and the divine (Pla., Symp. 23 p. 202e πᾶν τὸ δαιμόνιον μεταξύ ἐστι θεοῦ τε καὶ θνητοῦ; Chrysipp. [Stoic. II 338]δ. φαῦλα; Plut., Dio 2, 3 φαῦλ. δ., Mor. 267ff; Ps.-Lucian, Asinus 24 p. 592 οὐδὲ τὰ δ. δέδοικας; Vett. Val. 67, 5; 99, 7; Herm. Wr. 9, 3; PGM 4, 3081; 5, 120; 165; 170; LXX; En. 19, 1. Also δαιμόνιον πνεῦμα: lead tablet fr. Hadrumetum [Dssm., B 26, 35 (BS 271ff)]; PGM 4, 3038; 3065; 3075) who are said to enter into persons and cause illness, esp. of the mental variety (Jos., Bell. 7, 185, Ant. 6, 166ff; 211; 214; 8, 45ff): δ. εἰσέρχεται εἴς τιναLk 8:30; δ. ἔχειν Mt 11:18; Lk 7:33; 8:27; J 7:20; 8:48f, 52; 10:20. Hence the healing of a sick person is described as the driving out of demons ἐκβάλλειν (τ.) δ. (Jos., Ant. 6, 211)Mt 7:22; 9:34; 10:8; Mk 1:34, 39; 16:17; Lk 9:49; 11:14f, 18ff; 13:32 and oft. Pass. Mt 9:33. ἐξέρχεται τὸ δ. (s. ἐξέρχομαι 1aδ.—Thrasyllus [I ad] in Ps.-Plut., Fluv. 16 ἀπέρχεται τὸ δαιμόνιον) 17:18; Mk 7:29f; Lk 4:41; 8:2, 33, 35, 38. They live in deserted places 8:29, hence a ruined city is a habitation of demons Rv 18:2 (cf. Is 13:21; 34:14; Bar 4:35). Their ruler is Beelzebub (q.v.) Mt 12:24, 27; Lk 11:15, 18f. False doctrine is διδασκαλίαι δαιμονίων (subj. gen.) 1 Ti 4:1. The ability of demons to work miracles is variously described J 10:21 and Rv 16:14. They are objects of worship 9:20, specif. of idolatry (Dt 32:17; Bar 4:7; cf. Ps 95:5; Sib. Or. fgm. 1:22. Likew. Persians and Babylonians: Cumont3 305, 97) 1 Cor 10:20f; B 16:7. On Js 2:19 cf. φρίσσω.—Of the evil spirit of slander Hm 2:3; of vengeance s 9, 23, 5; of arrogance s 9, 22, 3.—The δ. can appear without a tangible body, and then acts as a ghost ISm

Quote:

Your claimed exception Jeffrey is horseshit.

Hardly. And didn't you say that context is determinative?

Jeffrey

mountainman · 03-27-2013, 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

OK Jeffrey. Stand by while I obtain an English translation from someone else other than your self, for your claimed exception.

Did you take me as saying that I thought that this was the only BCE text in which δαιμόν is used to mean "evil spirit?

No.

Quote:

In any case, when you find your translator, ask him or her if he/she believes your claim that it isn't until we get to Christian uses of the word that we find being used with the meaning of "evil spirit".

I am not asking anyone here or elsewhere to "believe" in anything other than the evidence.

Jeffrey Gibson · 03-27-2013, 10:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

OK Jeffrey. Stand by while I obtain an English translation from someone else other than your self, for your claimed exception.

Did you take me as saying that I thought that this was the only BCE text in which δαιμόν is used to mean "evil spirit?

No.

Quote:

In any case, when you find your translator, ask him or her if he/she believes your claim that it isn't until we get to Christian uses of the word that we find being used with the meaning of "evil spirit".

I am not asking anyone here or elsewhere to "believe" in anything other than the evidence.

I didn't know one could believe in evidence. I think you mean "believe in what the evidence indicates" "or, better, "accepts the conclusion(s) that it the evidence warrants/leads us to".

But then the question is whether the one who is presenting the evidence not only knows what the evidence is, but hasn't skewed, misunderstood, and or misrepresented what it is.

Jeffrey

mountainman · 03-27-2013, 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

The OP is quite specific. It's about "Daimon".

I see. So what's with your claim made here that what you stated in the OP was a desire to gather "together the instances of what all ancient writers (Greek and Latin) wrote about the term δαίμων in order to understand what they meant by this term"?

Quote:

Originally Posted by JG

Yes. But you are the one who cited the Wiki entry as good evidence to back up your claims about daimon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MM

The OP made reference to both WIKI and to the following Greek-English Lexicon, in which I have highlighted in blue the bulk of the entries, and in red a small minority of entries, commencing with Matthew.

There is no reference to Wiki in the OP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon

DAIMON

δαίμων , ονος, voc.

A. “δαίμων” S.OC1480 (lyr.), “δαῖμον” Theoc.2.11, ὁ, ἡ, god, goddess, of individual gods or goddesses, Il.1.222, 3.420, etc.; “δαίμονι ἶσος” 5.438; ἐμίσγετο δαίμονι δαίμων, of Φιλίη and Νεῖκος, Emp. 59.1 :—but more freq. of the Divine power (while θεός denotes a God in person), the Deity, cf. Od.3.27; πρὸς δαίμονα against the Divine power, Il.17.98; σὺν δαίμονι by its grace, 11.792; κατὰ δαίμονα, almost, = τύχῃ, by chance, Hdt.1.111; “τύχᾳ δαίμονος” Pi.O.8.67; ἄμαχος δ., i. e. Destiny, B.15.23: in pl., ὅτι δαίμονες θέλωσιν, what the Gods ordain, Id.16.117; “ταῦτα δ᾽ ἐν τῷ δ.” S. OC1443; “ἡ τύχη καὶ ὁ δ.” Lys. 13.63, cf.Aeschin.3.111; “κατὰ δαίμονα καὶ συντυχίαν” Ar.Av.544.

2. the power controlling the destiny of individuals: hence, one's lot or forlune, “δτυγερὸς δέ οἱ ἔχραε δ.” Od.5.396, cf. 10.64; “δαίμονος αἶσα κακή” 11.61; δαίμονα δώσω I will deal thee fate, i.e. kill thee, I1.8.166; freq. in Trag. of good or ill fortune, “ὅταν ὁ δ. εὐροῇ” A.Pers.601; “δ. ἀσινής” Id.Ag.1342 (lyr.); “κοινός” Id.Th.812; “γενναῖος πλὴν τοῦ δαίμονος” S.OC76; “δαίμονος σκληρότης” Antipho 3.3.4; “τὸν οἴακα στρέφει δ. ἑκάστψ” Anaxandr.4.6; personified as the good or evil genius of a family or person, “δ. τῷπλεισθενιδῶν” A.Ag.1569, cf. S.OT1194 (lyr.); “ὁ ἑκάστου δ.” Pl.Phd.107d, cf. PMag.Lond.121.505, Iamb.Myst.9.1; “ὁ δ. ὁ τὴν ἡμετέραν μοῖραν λελογχώς” Lys.2.78; “ἅπαντι δ. ἀνδρι συμπαρίσταται εὐθὺς γενομένῳ μυσταγωγὸς τοῦ βίου” Men.16.2 D.; “δ. ἀλάστορες” Id.8D.; “ὁ μέγας [τοῦ Καίσαρος] δ.” Plu.Caes.69; ὁ σὸς δ. κακός ibid.; “ὁ βασιλέως δ.” Id.Art.15; “ἦθος ἀνθρώπῳ δ.” Heraclit.119; “Ξενοκράτης φησὶ τὴν ψυχὴν ἑκάστου εἶναι δ.” Arist.Top.112a37.

II. δαίμονες, οἱ, souls of men of the golden age, acting as tutelary deities, Hes.Op. 122, Thgn.1348, Phoc.15, Emp.115.5, etc.; “θεῶν, δ., ἡρώων, τῶν ἐν Ἅιδου” Pl.R.392a: less freq. in sg., “δαίμονι δ᾽ οἷος ἔησθα τὸ ἐργάζεσθαι ἄμεινον” Hes.Op.314; τὸν τὲ δ. Δαρεῖον ἀγκαλεῖσθε, of the deified Darius, A.Pers.620; νῦν δ᾽ ἐστὶ μάκαιρα δ., of Alcestis, E.Alc.1003 (lyr.), cf.IG12(5).305.5 (Paros): later, of departed souls, Luc.Luct.24; δαίμοσιν εὐσεβέσιν, = Dis Manibus, IG14.1683; so θεοὶ δ., ib.938, al.: also, ghost, Paus.6.6.8.

2. generally, spiritual or semi-divine being inferior to the Gods, Plu.2.415a, al., Sallust.12, Dam.Pr.183, etc.; sp. eevil spirit, demon, Ev.Matt.8.31, J.AJ8.2.5; “φαῦλοι δ.” Alex.Aphr.Pr.2.46; δαίμονος ἔσοδος εἰς τὸν ἄνθρωπον, Aret.SD1.4; “πρᾶξις ἐκβάλλουσα δαίμονας” PMag.Par.1227.

3. ἀγαθὸς δ. the Good Genius to whom a toast was drunk after dinner, Ar.V.525, Nicostr.Com.20, D.S.4.3, Plu.2.655e, Philonid. ap. Ath.15.675b, Paus.9.39.5, IG12(3).436 (Thera), etc.; of Nero, “ἀ. δ. τῆς οἰκουμένης” OGI666.3; of the Nile, ἀ. δ. ποταμός ib.672.7 (i A.D.); of the tutelary genius of individuals (supr. 1), “ἀ. δ. Ποσειδωνίου” SIG1044.9 (Halic.): pl., δαίμονες ἀ., = Lat. Di Manes, SIG1246 (Mylasa): Astrol., ἀγαθός, κακός δ., names of celestial κλῆροι, Paul.Al.N.4, O.1, etc. (Less correctly written Ἀγαθοδαίμων, q.v.).

B. = δαήμων, knowing, δ. μάχης skilled in fight, Archil.3.4. (Pl. Cra.398b, suggests this as the orig. sense; while others would write δαήμονες in Archil., and get rid of this sense altogether; cf. however αἵμων. More probably the Root of δαίμων (deity) is δαίω to distribute destinies;; cf. Alcm.48.)

Quote:

So here are the small number of negative exceptions which commence with Ev.Matt.8.31.... (5)

esp. evil spirit, demon,
Ev.Matt.8.31,
Josephus.AJ8.2.5;
“φαῦλοι δ.” Alex.Aphr.Pr.2.46;
δαίμονος ἔσοδος εἰς τὸν ἄνθρωπον, Aret.SD1.4;
“πρᾶξις ἐκβάλλουσα δαίμονας” PMag.Par.1227.

I thought you acknowledged that LSJ was not intent to adduce all instances of a given use of a word with a meaning that they note is to be found in it, and that LSJ cound not be used to deterime how many times a word was used by Greek writers with a given sense.

I did.

Quote:

Tell me, Pete, are the instances that LSJ cites to show that Greeks used δαίμων to mean the power controlling the destiny of individuals: hence, one's lot or forlune all of the instances in the whole of ancient Greek literature in which this meaning can be found.

No. I'd expect the LJS to be some sort of guide as a sample of all uses.

Quote:

Do you know how many times δαίμων is used in Greek literature before the 4th century CE when you claim the Gospels were first composed -- and therefore when δαίμων was first used to mean "evil spirit"?

A searh of the TLG shows that between from the 8th century BCE and the beginning of the first century CE there are 709 instances just of the the nominative singular form alone. There are 331 uses of its nominative plural form. I won'ty bother looking up its singularv and lural genative, accusative, and dative forms since it's already clear that the number of noanative forms far exceeds what one might suppose was the case if you only used the number of times the word is adduced in LSJ as your guide to the actual numebr of times the word is found in Greek literature.

And do you think too that LSJ lists the instances they do give diachronically

No.

Quote:

...so that in their listing of Matt 8:31 first when they give attestations to the use of a the word to mean generally, spiritual or semi-divine being inferior to the Gods, Plu.2.415a, al., Sallust.12, Dam.Pr.183, etc.; esp(ecially)evil spirit, demon, they are claiming that the first time the word was used in this sense occurs in Matthew?

Of course not.

The OP however is making this claim.

εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

mountainman · 03-27-2013, 11:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Hipp. Morb.Sacr. 1 (English)

Quote:

all these they hold to be the plots of Hecate, and the invasions the and use purifications and incantations, and, as appears to me, make the divinity to be most wicked and most impious

Your claimed exception Jeffrey is horseshit.

Hardly. And didn't you say that context is determinative?

Hippocrates is discussing a disease which he calls sacred. He says

Quote:

They who first referred this malady to the gods appear to me to have been just such persons as the conjurors, purificators, mountebanks, and charlatans now are, who give themselves out for being excessively religious, and as knowing more than other people.

He then says:

Quote:

For, if they profess to know how to bring down the moon, darken the sun, induce storms and fine weather, and rains and droughts, and make the sea and land unproductive, and so forth, whether they arrogate this power as being derived from mysteries or any other knowledge or consideration, they appear to me to practice impiety, and either to fancy that there are no gods, or, if there are, that they have no ability to ward off any of the greatest evils.

He then says:

Quote:

For, if they imitate a goat, or grind their teeth, or if their right side be convulsed, they say that the mother of the gods is the cause. But if they speak in a sharper and more intense tone, they resemble this state to a horse, and say that Poseidon(Neptune) is the cause. Or if any excrement be passed, which is often the case, owing to the violence of the disease, the appellation of Enodia (Hecate?)is adhibited; or, if it be passed in smaller and denser masses, like bird's, it is said to be from Apollo Nomius.

But if foam be emitted by the mouth, and the patient kick with his feet, Ares(Mars) then gets the blame. But terrors which happen during the night, and fevers, and delirium, and jumpings out of bed, and frightful apparitions, and fleeing away,-all these they hold to be the plots of Hecate, and the invasions the and use purifications and incantations, and, as appears to me, make the [DAIMON] divinity [δαίμων]to be most wicked and most impious.

Hippocrates is not saying the "daimon" is most wicked.

He is claiming that the actions of this disease (kicking, grinding teeth, imitating goats or horses, jumping out of bed, seeing frightful apparitions) are blamed on various gods (the mother of the gods, Poseidon, Ares, Apollo Nomius, Enodia) by means of the plots of Hecate.

All this behaviour as it appears to Hippocrates, makes the "daimon" [of the sick person] to be most wicked and most impious.

εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

mountainman · 03-27-2013, 11:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

I am not asking anyone here or elsewhere to "believe" in anything other than the evidence.

I didn't know one could believe in evidence.

One must make hypotheses about the evidence.

Quote:

I think you mean "believe in what the evidence indicates" "or, better, "accepts the conclusion(s) that it the evidence warrants/leads us to".

FWIW I have attempted to reduce this process to a schematic.

εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

mountainman · 03-28-2013, 10:31 AM

The Divergent Uses of Greek Philosophical Terms By Platonic Philosophy and Modern Psychology: Two Illustrations by Robert K. Clark

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philo of Alexandria

Philo, indeed, equated daimons with angels, when he spoke of those

. . .who are absolutely pure and excellent, who have received a greater and more divine spirit, having never craved for earthly things, but are lieutenants of the ruler of all, like ears and eyes of the great king, beholding and hearing all things. They are called daimons by other philosophers, but the Sacred Word is accustomed to call them angels.

Philo, On Dreams I 138-141. Translation © 2005 by Robert K. Clark

From footnotes:

Apuleius specifically notes that daimons are passive, but that the gods are not. The reason for this is set forth by Sallust:

Quote:

"If anyone thinks, in accordance with reason and truth, that the gods are not subject to change, and then wonders how they rejoice in the good and reject the bad, how they are angry with sinners and become propitious when appeased, the answer is that deity neither rejoices (for that which rejoices also feels sorrow), nor is angry (for anger is a passion), nor is appeased by gifts (for it would be then be subject to pleasure). It is not right to think that deity should be moved to good or to evil by human affairs. The gods are always good and always give aid and never harm, being ever in the same changeless state.

We, when we are good, are united to the gods through our likeness to them; but if we are bad we are separated from them because we are unlike them. And when we live according to virtue, we are close to the gods; but when we become evil, we cause them to become our enemies - not because they are angry, but because guilt prevents us from receiving the illuminations of the gods. If by prayers and sacrifice we obtain release from our guilt, we do not appease or change the gods, but by the acts we perform and by turning toward the divine we heal our evil and so again enjoy the goodness of the gods. To say that the gods turn away from the bad is like saying that the sun hides itself from the blind."

Sallust, On the Gods and the World XIV. Translation © 2005 by Robert K. Clark.

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