Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Minimalist · 05-20-2013, 07:02 PM

Quote:

How can you nail a coffin when you have to admit that the limitations of the tools of archeological investigation is insufficient given the objective being investigated? Please reread my posting about this.

I suggest you put your fucking bible down and start studying archaeology. You might learn something.

steve_bnk · 05-20-2013, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

Well, considering it is said that several million people occupied a large area over a period of 40 years some 3000 years ago, I would say that the extent of successful discoveries lies well beyond the resources of the Hebrew University or Oxford. But again, my questions have not been addressed individually by anyone. I am still waiting.

Here they are again in case people have forgotten:
- Archaeological evidence for the existence of the entire Samaritan sect from Nablus to Rome to Egypt?
- Archaeological evidence for the existence of Marcion, Marcionites, Valentinians and the rest of them?
- Archaeological evidence for the existence of all those Karaite communities in Persia and Iraq?
- Archaeological evidence for the travels of the Jews who are said to have been the ancestors of the Ethiopian Falashas?
- Archaeological evidence for the mass suicide at Masada?
- Archaeological evidence for the existence of Josephus?
- Archaeological evidence for all the alleged early Christian communities in Palestine?
- Archaeological evidence for those Christian communities allegedly existing in the 2nd century according to writings under the name of Justin Martyr?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

I have and you have refused to clarify what you mean.

Do you seriously think that search for evidence of the Exodus has not been thorough?

Yes, along with all those archeological questions George Washington really chopped down a cherry tree? And again the questions have no bearing.

Tt is not clear to me. Are you making a claim for a possible biblical Exodus per the biblical details or are you not? That would be a yes or a no.

Answer that without equivocation and I will try to continue with a response per the above.

Duvduv · 05-20-2013, 07:41 PM

I guess I suggested very difficult questions to be answered in the realm of the limitations of archaeology. But someone will answer them. And someone will admit that unless archaeological evidence demonstrates the presence of many hundreds of people living temporarily in the desert we will find ourselves in this same discussion forever. After all, if archaeology could confirm relics by which it could be determined that a few hundred or thousand people were in the desert, that would certainly be insufficient for the skeptics. Nothing short of evidence for a million or more people would do anyway.

And WHERE has archaeology ever provided EVIDENCE of the existence of an actual million people as opposed to interpretation of a few findings?? And everyone knows how poorly funded archaeology is, except maybe in the case of Egypt......in which case no one can explain how or who actually even built the pyramids (it sure wasn't the Israelites, however).........

outhouse · 05-20-2013, 08:20 PM

Your lost here.

You also argue with Israels best and brightest archeologist

http://www.concentric.net/~Worgar/exodus.htm

Recently, the archeologists Israel Finkelstein (Tel Aviv University) and Neil Asher Silberman (director of historical interpretation, Ename Center for Public Archeology and Heritage Presentation, Belgium) summarized the archeological findings and latest corrections regarding the historical origins of the Jewish nation. In their words, "The process that we describe here is, in fact, the opposite of what we have in the Bible: the emergence of early Israel was an outcome of the collapse of the Canaanite culture, not its cause. And most of the Israelites did not come from outside Canaan - they emerged from within it. There was no mass exodus from Egypt. There was no violent conquest of Canaan" (3).

Finkelstein and Silberman point out that there is still no evidence for the existence of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Lot, Moses, and Joshua. There is no evidence that Jewish people existed as an identified people that were enslaved in Egypt. There is no evidence that over 600,000 men (plus women and children - the number could have been over a million) had an exodus from Egypt and wandered in the desert for 40 years. According to the Bible, 38 of these 40 years were actually spent encamped at Kadesh-barnea. This area has been turned upside down for decades, looking for even a tiny piece of pottery from this supposed time. It is not likely that this many people would have lived here this long and not left archeological evidence.

semiopen · 05-21-2013, 04:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

We are talking archeology, not your suppositions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by semiopen

Archaeology aside, the logistics of the 3 million people is too difficult. In addition to the logistics, it's just too many people to have come out of a late bronze age culture.

Christians have some advantage because they have some leeway to play with the numbers as discussed above. However, Haredi Jews don't have that advantage; they are stuck with the 600,000 men.

I don't know how this can be defended. Instead of what might have been a brilliant defense, we have to endure an absurd distracting attack on archaeology.

Hardly worth responding to, I've already responded to the North Africa issue.

However, it's worth noting that this is the typical Haredi pot calling the kettle black. Not a single link is provided by the pot.

semiopen · 05-21-2013, 05:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

I guess I suggested very difficult questions to be answered in the realm of the limitations of archaeology. But someone will answer them. And someone will admit that unless archaeological evidence demonstrates the presence of many hundreds of people living temporarily in the desert we will find ourselves in this same discussion forever. After all, if archaeology could confirm relics by which it could be determined that a few hundred or thousand people were in the desert, that would certainly be insufficient for the skeptics. Nothing short of evidence for a million or more people would do anyway.

And WHERE has archaeology ever provided EVIDENCE of the existence of an actual million people as opposed to interpretation of a few findings?? And everyone knows how poorly funded archaeology is, except maybe in the case of Egypt......in which case no one can explain how or who actually even built the pyramids (it sure wasn't the Israelites, however).........

The current thinking is that the builders of the pyramids weren't slaves.

I've pointed out in the past that there was little economic advantage in enslaving someone especially when you have people who would work pretty much for free. It's not like you had to pay unemployment insurance, etc.

Egypt tombs suggest free men built pyramids, not slaves

Also

Slaves and Slavery in Ancient Egypt

Quote:

For ancient Egypt, a better, or at least more precise definition of a slave might be a "person owned by a master, as was any other chattel, used as the master pleased, to the extent of being disposed of by inheritance, gift sale and so forth". In reality, such slavery seems to have been fairly rare in Egypt prior to the Greek Period, progressing over time.

Even the actual descriptions in the bible are not very clear about the depths of servitude of the Hebrews. They seem to own a lot of shit and get plenty of days off. The Levites weren't enslaved at all.

Anyway Professor Duvi could just as easily google

Quote:

who built pyramids in ancient egypt free men or slaves

but its much easier to ask people to do stuff for you, especially when one isn't really interested in knowing more about the subject.

It is astonishing that this would be the foundational myth of Judaism. What kind of mind would make this up? Some people argue that this makes it true.

Duvduv · 05-21-2013, 05:34 AM

So what? There's no evidence for the existence of Julius Cesaer, Alexander the Great, Mohammed, Buddha, Zoroaster, Aristotle, Plato, or Socrates. And there is no actual evidence for the Canaanite origin theory of Israelites either. Just hypotheses.

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

Your lost here.

You also argue with Israels best and brightest archeologist

http://www.concentric.net/~Worgar/exodus.htm

Recently, the archeologists Israel Finkelstein (Tel Aviv University) and Neil Asher Silberman (director of historical interpretation, Ename Center for Public Archeology and Heritage Presentation, Belgium) summarized the archeological findings and latest corrections regarding the historical origins of the Jewish nation. In their words, "The process that we describe here is, in fact, the opposite of what we have in the Bible: the emergence of early Israel was an outcome of the collapse of the Canaanite culture, not its cause. And most of the Israelites did not come from outside Canaan - they emerged from within it. There was no mass exodus from Egypt. There was no violent conquest of Canaan" (3).

Finkelstein and Silberman point out that there is still no evidence for the existence of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Lot, Moses, and Joshua. There is no evidence that Jewish people existed as an identified people that were enslaved in Egypt. There is no evidence that over 600,000 men (plus women and children - the number could have been over a million) had an exodus from Egypt and wandered in the desert for 40 years. According to the Bible, 38 of these 40 years were actually spent encamped at Kadesh-barnea. This area has been turned upside down for decades, looking for even a tiny piece of pottery from this supposed time. It is not likely that this many people would have lived here this long and not left archeological evidence.

Duvduv · 05-21-2013, 05:38 AM

Are you the arbiter for what constitutes sufficient and satisfactory research postings as a prerequisite for participating in this forum? In any case, you have ignored my links anyway. Perhaps it bothers you that I do not share your religion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by semiopen

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

I guess I suggested very difficult questions to be answered in the realm of the limitations of archaeology. But someone will answer them. And someone will admit that unless archaeological evidence demonstrates the presence of many hundreds of people living temporarily in the desert we will find ourselves in this same discussion forever. After all, if archaeology could confirm relics by which it could be determined that a few hundred or thousand people were in the desert, that would certainly be insufficient for the skeptics. Nothing short of evidence for a million or more people would do anyway.

And WHERE has archaeology ever provided EVIDENCE of the existence of an actual million people as opposed to interpretation of a few findings?? And everyone knows how poorly funded archaeology is, except maybe in the case of Egypt......in which case no one can explain how or who actually even built the pyramids (it sure wasn't the Israelites, however).........

The current thinking is that the builders of the pyramids weren't slaves.

I've pointed out in the past that there was little economic advantage in enslaving someone especially when you have people who would work pretty much for free. It's not like you had to pay unemployment insurance, etc.

Egypt tombs suggest free men built pyramids, not slaves

Also

Slaves and Slavery in Ancient Egypt

Even the actual descriptions in the bible are not very clear about the depths of servitude of the Hebrews. They seem to own a lot of shit and get plenty of days off. The Levites weren't enslaved at all.

Anyway Professor Duvi could just as easily google

Quote:

who built pyramids in ancient egypt free men or slaves

but its much easier to ask people to do stuff for you, especially when one isn't really interested in knowing more about the subject.

It is astonishing that this would be the foundational myth of Judaism. What kind of mind would make this up? Some people argue that this makes it true.

semiopen · 05-21-2013, 05:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

See my added question again in my last reply to you?

Do you mean "And how much evidence is enough to confirm a million people? What resources are needed for that? "

This doesn't answer my question or clarify yours.

Are you trying to imply that there could be evidence that hasn't been found yet, inspite of intensive explorations?

Just a little quibble Toto.

Of course Duvi is being absurd and easy to refute, but a much smaller number than a million people would have left traces in the Sinai that would have been found. For example, I think 10,000 people would have certainly left evidence in the Sinai that would have been discovered by now.

Sort of like Would you Believe in Get Smart

Get Smart Prequel - "Would You Believe..." .

Duvduv · 05-21-2013, 05:40 AM

Upside down?? Please don't exaggerate. And who funded it? George Soros? And using what technology?

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

Your lost here.

You also argue with Israels best and brightest archeologist

http://www.concentric.net/~Worgar/exodus.htm

Recently, the archeologists Israel Finkelstein (Tel Aviv University) and Neil Asher Silberman (director of historical interpretation, Ename Center for Public Archeology and Heritage Presentation, Belgium) summarized the archeological findings and latest corrections regarding the historical origins of the Jewish nation. In their words, "The process that we describe here is, in fact, the opposite of what we have in the Bible: the emergence of early Israel was an outcome of the collapse of the Canaanite culture, not its cause. And most of the Israelites did not come from outside Canaan - they emerged from within it. There was no mass exodus from Egypt. There was no violent conquest of Canaan" (3).

Finkelstein and Silberman point out that there is still no evidence for the existence of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Lot, Moses, and Joshua. There is no evidence that Jewish people existed as an identified people that were enslaved in Egypt. There is no evidence that over 600,000 men (plus women and children - the number could have been over a million) had an exodus from Egypt and wandered in the desert for 40 years. According to the Bible, 38 of these 40 years were actually spent encamped at Kadesh-barnea. This area has been turned upside down for decades, looking for even a tiny piece of pottery from this supposed time. It is not likely that this many people would have lived here this long and not left archeological evidence.

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05-20-2013, 07:41 PM	#113
Duvduv Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: USA Posts: 4,095	I guess I suggested very difficult questions to be answered in the realm of the limitations of archaeology. But someone will answer them. And someone will admit that unless archaeological evidence demonstrates the presence of many hundreds of people living temporarily in the desert we will find ourselves in this same discussion forever. After all, if archaeology could confirm relics by which it could be determined that a few hundred or thousand people were in the desert, that would certainly be insufficient for the skeptics. Nothing short of evidence for a million or more people would do anyway. And WHERE has archaeology ever provided EVIDENCE of the existence of an actual million people as opposed to interpretation of a few findings?? And everyone knows how poorly funded archaeology is, except maybe in the case of Egypt......in which case no one can explain how or who actually even built the pyramids (it sure wasn't the Israelites, however).........

05-20-2013, 08:20 PM	#114
outhouse Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Auburn ca Posts: 4,269	Your lost here. You also argue with Israels best and brightest archeologist http://www.concentric.net/~Worgar/exodus.htm Recently, the archeologists Israel Finkelstein (Tel Aviv University) and Neil Asher Silberman (director of historical interpretation, Ename Center for Public Archeology and Heritage Presentation, Belgium) summarized the archeological findings and latest corrections regarding the historical origins of the Jewish nation. In their words, "The process that we describe here is, in fact, the opposite of what we have in the Bible: the emergence of early Israel was an outcome of the collapse of the Canaanite culture, not its cause. And most of the Israelites did not come from outside Canaan - they emerged from within it. There was no mass exodus from Egypt. There was no violent conquest of Canaan" (3). Finkelstein and Silberman point out that there is still no evidence for the existence of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Lot, Moses, and Joshua. There is no evidence that Jewish people existed as an identified people that were enslaved in Egypt. There is no evidence that over 600,000 men (plus women and children - the number could have been over a million) had an exodus from Egypt and wandered in the desert for 40 years. According to the Bible, 38 of these 40 years were actually spent encamped at Kadesh-barnea. This area has been turned upside down for decades, looking for even a tiny piece of pottery from this supposed time. It is not likely that this many people would have lived here this long and not left archeological evidence.

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